luggsey Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 hi guysQuick question, i've been reading through some info on the data protection act etc regarding domestic CCTV. and it also my understanding that domestic CCTV has no obligations in regards to the dpa. However, i was just curious, what if there were fully working PTZ cameras installed on domestic property. These obviously can view far more than lookng at there own property.... whats your thoughts on this? would it now become an issue? I had been thinking along the same lines as I am upgrading my own CCTV to include a dome PTZ camera to replace existing fixed units. In theory it could be used to look where it should not but this could not be reason to have it removed surely? I want to replace several fixed cameras with a neat dome on alarm inputs to the gate intercom and wireless PIR's so information on any problems I am likely to encounter would be useful to me also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is like a box of chocolates, some bugger always gets the nice ones! My Amateur Radio Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkie Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I had been thinking along the same lines as I am upgrading my own CCTV to include a dome PTZ camera to replace existing fixed units. In theory it could be used to look where it should not but this could not be reason to have it removed surely?I want to replace several fixed cameras with a neat dome on alarm inputs to the gate intercom and wireless PIR's so information on any problems I am likely to encounter would be useful to me also. Now this is the daft thing about the Law (DPA), as I understand it. It is not the camera view(s) that is relevant here, it is the use. Domestic use of CCTV is exempt, so as I see it there is no conflict with the DPA if you wish to use PTZ cameras. So enjoy! Ilkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doktor Jon Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Now this is the daft thing about the Law (DPA), as I understand it.It is not the camera view(s) that is relevant here, it is the use. Domestic use of CCTV is exempt, so as I see it there is no conflict with the DPA if you wish to use PTZ cameras. So enjoy! Ilkie Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luggsey Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Does anybody have any updated info on the use of a dome PTZ on a domestic install? Example if a neighbour complained to police that they think they are being observed by a dome PTZ what action if any could/would be taken? I have a couple of customers that want dome PTZ cameras on domestics but I want to find out the possible problems first. Is masking on a dome going to be required, if so how would this be checked? Confusing times indeed! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is like a box of chocolates, some bugger always gets the nice ones! My Amateur Radio Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doktor Jon Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Does anybody have any updated info on the use of a dome PTZ on a domestic install?Example if a neighbour complained to police that they think they are being observed by a dome PTZ what action if any could/would be taken? I have a couple of customers that want dome PTZ cameras on domestics but I want to find out the possible problems first. Is masking on a dome going to be required, if so how would this be checked? Confusing times indeed! Not confusing at all luggsey Residential use of CCTV is currently exempt under Section 36 of the DPA, so it doesn't matter what equipment a homeowner uses, they don't have to comply with the Act. That said, if there is the remotest possibility that a neighbouring homeowner may feel that they are being observed by a camera (particularly a PTZ / Dome), there is always the possibility that they may report it to the Police, using the Protection from Harassment Act (1997) as the appropriate legislation. Whether the police take it seriously or not is really up to the investigating officer on the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luggsey Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Not confusing at all luggsey Residential use of CCTV is currently exempt under Section 36 of the DPA, so it doesn't matter what equipment a homeowner uses, they don't have to comply with the Act. That said, if there is the remotest possibility that a neighbouring homeowner may feel that they are being observed by a camera (particularly a PTZ / Dome), there is always the possibility that they may report it to the Police, using the Protection from Harassment Act (1997) as the appropriate legislation. Whether the police take it seriously or not is really up to the investigating officer on the day I know the DPA question has been covered many times already and is clear on domestic use having an exemption if the data is processed for private use, this assumes a recording system is in use. I was more interested in any facts about lawfulness of fitting a PTZ dome where it "could" be used to monitor private property, not record and how this is checked if a complaint is made. If a customer of mine says they have had a police visit after a complaint and for example have been asked to mask an area like a window in a neighbours house for example, is this a lawful request from the police or would they/should they have to proceed with a court action? I can't really see how the police could claim or prove harrasment if a dome is in use on a private property for monitoring only? A fixed camera looking at a neighbours windows is of course going to look like harrasment but the dome...... How can it? As you say does it depend on the opinion of a police officer or is there a "test" applied to it? I wonder?? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is like a box of chocolates, some bugger always gets the nice ones! My Amateur Radio Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doktor Jon Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 I know the DPA question has been covered many times already and is clear on domestic use having an exemption if the data is processed for private use, this assumes a recording system is in use.I was more interested in any facts about lawfulness of fitting a PTZ dome where it "could" be used to monitor private property, not record and how this is checked if a complaint is made. If a customer of mine says they have had a police visit after a complaint and for example have been asked to mask an area like a window in a neighbours house for example, is this a lawful request from the police or would they/should they have to proceed with a court action? I can't really see how the police could claim or prove harrasment if a dome is in use on a private property for monitoring only? A fixed camera looking at a neighbours windows is of course going to look like harrasment but the dome...... How can it? As you say does it depend on the opinion of a police officer or is there a "test" applied to it? I wonder?? luggsey, The DPA equally applies to video surveillance whether it incorporates a recording system or not. The commissioners test is whether you can study the behaviour of an individual (and in so doing learn something about them), in an area that is not immediately visible to the observer without the use of video monitoring equipment (that sounds so confusing, even I'm having to think about it ). To put it another way, if the camera is watching someone in an area that is not within your unrestricted view, then the DPA applies. There are a few exemptions, of which domestic / residential is a fairly major one. The point about siting a camera of whatever design, which is thought by a neighbour to be capable of monitoring their private property (in other words, they think it is invading their privacy, even if it isn't), would in theory be sufficient for a complaint about harassment. A couple of points to consider; if the camera were mounted on a non residential premises, with residential neighbours, then a complaint could be made to the Information Commissioner about harassment under the DPA. If the premises were purely residential, then as previously mentioned, the DPA does not apply; but the Protection from Harassment legislation could apply in either situation. Even if the camera were a dummy (which the neighbour would of course not be aware of), then as long as they feel that they are being deliberately harassed, they would in theory have a reasonable basis for complaint to the police. If privacy masking or movement restrictions were in place to prevent the neighbouring property from being monitored, it would probably be down to the investigating officer or their superior, to satisfy themselves as to that fact, and then decide if any further action needs to be taken. As far as I'm aware, there is no specific standardised test in these situations, although if you can find a police officer that actually understands the relevant legislation then you're off to a flying start TBH, common sense best practice suggests that in the vast majority of situations, problems can easily be avoided, either by consulting the neighbours (to allay any pre / potential post installation worries), locating cameras in non contentious locations (if possible), installing covert cameras, or involving the neighbours as part of a larger 'community' type system - maybe even using 2.4GHz video senders so that they also have access to a specific image (should they wish). I've lost count of how many totally p****d off neighbours have written to me this year, with insensitive or downright malicious NFH that are using CCTV to deliberately harass them. Unfortunately until we get some proper legislation in place (don't hold your breath), this will remain a constant source of unease and distrust for some Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luggsey Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 luggsey,The DPA equally applies to video surveillance whether it incorporates a recording system or not. The commissioners test is whether you can study the behaviour of an individual (and in so doing learn something about them), in an area that is not immediately visible to the observer without the use of video monitoring equipment (that sounds so confusing, even I'm having to think about it ). To put it another way, if the camera is watching someone in an area that is not within your unrestricted view, then the DPA applies. There are a few exemptions, of which domestic / residential is a fairly major one. The point about siting a camera of whatever design, which is thought by a neighbour to be capable of monitoring their private property (in other words, they think it is invading their privacy, even if it isn't), would in theory be sufficient for a complaint about harassment. A couple of points to consider; if the camera were mounted on a non residential premises, with residential neighbours, then a complaint could be made to the Information Commissioner about harassment under the DPA. If the premises were purely residential, then as previously mentioned, the DPA does not apply; but the Protection from Harassment legislation could apply in either situation. Even if the camera were a dummy (which the neighbour would of course not be aware of), then as long as they feel that they are being deliberately harassed, they would in theory have a reasonable basis for complaint to the police. If privacy masking or movement restrictions were in place to prevent the neighbouring property from being monitored, it would probably be down to the investigating officer or their superior, to satisfy themselves as to that fact, and then decide if any further action needs to be taken. As far as I'm aware, there is no specific standardised test in these situations, although if you can find a police officer that actually understands the relevant legislation then you're off to a flying start TBH, common sense best practice suggests that in the vast majority of situations, problems can easily be avoided, either by consulting the neighbours (to allay any pre / potential post installation worries), locating cameras in non contentious locations (if possible), installing covert cameras, or involving the neighbours as part of a larger 'community' type system - maybe even using 2.4GHz video senders so that they also have access to a specific image (should they wish). I've lost count of how many totally p****d off neighbours have written to me this year, with insensitive or downright malicious NFH that are using CCTV to deliberately harass them. Unfortunately until we get some proper legislation in place (don't hold your breath), this will remain a constant source of unease and distrust for some Not confusing at all luggsey no.gif Remember this? And now this! (that sounds so confusing, even I'm having to think about it lol.gif ). So you understand my confusion! I had studied the DPA and concluded it does not apply to domestic non recorded images, that's my understanding of it anyway. The customers that want domes have neighbour problems already so reaching a prior agreement isin't going to work in this case TBH which is why I wanted to get to the bottom of the relevent legislation now before anything hits the fan. I suppose the only way to find out the "test" as to weather or not a camera is being used to harrass someone is to look at case law on the subject, anybody got any case law refrence material they can have a look at?? The average PC plod dosen't have much of a clue about this area of the law TBH, the one I spoke to didn't anyway! I'll keep digging on the web to trawl up some more info, if I find any I'll post here what I find. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is like a box of chocolates, some bugger always gets the nice ones! My Amateur Radio Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luggsey Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Liberty web page NFH ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is like a box of chocolates, some bugger always gets the nice ones! My Amateur Radio Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luggsey Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Liberty web pageNFH NFH again! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is like a box of chocolates, some bugger always gets the nice ones! My Amateur Radio Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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