EViS
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Posts posted by EViS
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A pandemic? Cannot say I have.
It's more a case of the fact that some suppliers don't even have these listed in their stock catalogues, whilst others aren't aware of any pricing (or lead times).
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Does anyone know, or can best-guess, when the DS-2CD2386G2-ISU/SL 4k G2 turret cameras with strobe lights and speakers are likely to be released? No suppliers that I have approached can find any stock availability or pricing on these. I've only been able to find a couple video reviews.
Are Hik known for releasing product information way in advance of actual product release dates which means I may be waiting quite some time for one of these?
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These days, using trade desks in isolation is nuts if you're after the best prices (and sometimes advice too). More often than not there's a better price online with a faster service when you account for deliveries directly to your door.
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23 minutes ago, PeterJames said:
Really? That is interesting ADI are going to love you posting that on here, Hik do not like their distributors selling their stuff to JP, and distributors have got into trouble over it in the past .
I only know Dahua products, I have never really bothered with Hik for varying reasons. I couldnt give you a comparison other than the fact that they both have similar versions of the same stuff. What I can tell you is Hik are part owned by the Chinese Government, and Dahua are not, yet guess whose face recognition cameras are in all the tube and train stations in Shenzhen
We source much of our AV and lighting installation kit from ADI
. In terms of official Hik distributors, it's fairly obvious just from reading application forms that anyone can register an account .
The security aspect of Hik is a concern, but once installed behind a VPN, I won't lose any sleep at night.
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14 hours ago, PeterJames said:
I cant really comment on Hik stuff I am not familiar with their products. All manufacturers have their own protocols and way of doing things, I havent heard anything bad about Hik for a while so they are most likely okay. As I said earlier though just be sure you are buying from a Hik UK registered dealer other wise you may end up with Hik stuff with non uk firmware or worse fake Hik.
Seeing as you're more familiar with Dahua, is there a large difference in the AI capabilities between their products?
Already have an account with ADI who are a registered dealer. But have opened a couple of other accounts with other online UK approved distributors for some price-sensing
. Although, is there a supplier you could recommend in particular (happy for you to PM if you prefer).
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12 hours ago, al-yeti said:
what size hard disk you going to put in?
Basic calculations are for 1no 6TB Purple drive encoding in h265 which should provide me with 20 days of stored video. However, I have yet to research what the optimum framerate should be. I've seen 15fps mentioned a couple of times, however that does seem very low to me. Could you offer some insight, al-yeti?
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Do any of you have any experience with the Deepinview IDS cameras or NVR's? How further advanced are their algorithms and features from what has been included into the Acusense cameras/recorders?
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Ah yes, I have no doubt this technology has been around for decades already. A bit like speech recognition, originally developed by IBM in the 60's has only just made it's way into the mass-consumer market with Alexa, Google, Apple, etc releasing their services around it. Although admittedly it has vastly been improved upon.
I'd be interested to know how far behind the Dahua and Hik AI is from the commercial offerings? From what I have researched, it's even miles behind what the likes of BlueIris software offers.
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There seems to be very little difference between Hik and Dahua offerings and the price difference is also marginal, so I settled with the former as I was already slightly familiar with their model numbers. I was also torn between these and setting up a custom BlueIris system. However, my days of enjoying to tinker and maintain Windows (or even Linux) systems are long gone!
With the primary requirement being that I want notification of any human and vehicle movement outside the property, I have narrowed my choice down to the Hikvision DS-7608NI-I2/8P NVR and DS-2CD2386G2-IU Acusense cameras.
The cameras are a higher MP than what I require with a marginally increased image sensor when compared to the 4MP cameras which may result in a slightly reduced night visibility. However, being the G2 version, they offer additional AI features over the DS-2CD2346G1-IU (although I understand that the G2 version of the 4MP should be within the UK shortly so I may just hold of until then).
I have looked at the likes of DS-7616NXI-I2/16P NVR's with Acusense (Deepinmind) AI included. However, with these being fairly new to market and minimal reviews to go by, I'm not sure I want to take a punt on one just yet. I'm also unsure whether combining Acusense cameras with an Acusense NVR is going to offer any additional features, either now or with future firmware upgrades. Although it would be good to hear your views on this?
It would be good to hear some of your guy's comments on the above setup and whether it's likely to meet my requirements (unless of course it means I'm convinced back to the idea of beams and detectors
).
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2 hours ago, james.wilson said:
bear in mind this will become a tickbox feature as lower end gear adds it as a feature that wont work at all like movement detection on traditional dvr's etc
Not quite sure I follow what you mean here, James?
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What are the community thoughts on which option provides more flexibility or is worth the upfront cost: Hik's Acusense tech built into the cameras which undertake AI processing and then feed video to an NVR, or Acusense (Deepinmind) NVR's which undertake AI processing from video fed by 'dumb' Darkfighter or ColorVu cameras?
The latter option seems to be newer and less reviewed, possibly due to higher upfront costs on smaller (6 or less) CCTV setups. I do however like the centralisation of the image processing but unsure whether the price premium is worth it?
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11 minutes ago, james.wilson said:
I only use beams and detectors both wired and wireless for notification and external lighting only. Heating is by alarm set status not yet on a per room basis but i might do this.
What is your reason for not using CCTV for the external notification side of your system, in the manner that Peter does? I'm just trying to educate myself on the pro's and con's of both and what influences the choice
.
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3 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said:
The intruder panel would control the heating from the systems set status not the beams.
Duh! Of course it will, hence the use of IFTTT! Is this one of the reasons you guys don't class anything by Pyronix as 'top end'? They're panels are fairly 'dumb' in what they can control and connect with? Or is there a more underlying issue of security with their panels (wireless aside for the purposes of the question)?
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1 hour ago, james.wilson said:
you wont be able to link them in that way. I do what your trying to do with beams and external sensors at home. It also controls my heating modes (ie away etc) based on set status also using ifttt. I get app notifications when armed and chime when disarmed But i dont use pyronix anything. Its HKC which is a pro installer only panel. You could get similar with more available kit, ie the spc or dimension but it wont be a simple programming job
Do you use any form of CCTV with the AI inputs as per Peter's setup, or is it solely beams and sensors? How do you use beams/external sensors to control your heating? I would have thought it would be internal PIR's which would control that as anything external couldn't be configured to know whether you're personally in the property or whether it was just a courier delivering a parcel?
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Thanks once again, I'm currently researching the difference between Dahua and Hik.
One thing which may sway me and it would be good to have some confirmation on is whether the Enforcer panel would work seamlessly with the Hikvision cameras in regards to providing loud audible notifications through the panel's built-in speaker as and when the AI picks up human or vehicle movement, as well as working with keyfobs so that audible notifications can be activated as and when we leave the house or lock-up at night?
Or is there a more efficient/modern way of achieving the above?
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20 minutes ago, PeterJames said:
It is horses for courses I would always look at each site and make decisions based on the nature of the requirements. If the site is not suitable for AI CCTV detection then I would use beams. We have an large engineering site that has beams around the perimeter, it was installed a long time ago but all the cameras are looking from perimeter towards the site, so intruders would already be on site before they are detected if we used the cameras. we cant point the cameras along the perimeter because of high traffic (plus the expense of towers etc. The site has lots of copper and other valuable metal on site, the cameras are looking at the theft attractive property and the land between the perimeter but intruders would be detected by the beams quite a few minutes before any cameras would. Most domestic situations, stables, tack rooms, gardens, garages, etc AI is perfect.
That's very helpful once again. I'll plough some more time into researching CCTV now
. As a basis, is there a system that is your go-to for residential installations which strike a balanced mid-high quality to price ratio? (I appreciate that there will be variances in camera specs depending on the site which is being monitored).
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18 minutes ago, al-yeti said:
Against building or in garden walls?
The beams would run parallel with the building's walls, approx 10 metres apart.
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Thanks Peter, that's been super helpful and has caused me to revisit the idea of CCTV which I previously discounted as still being inferior to a more traditional alarm with individual sensors.
You said earlier that "beams will continue to sell for a while" whilst CCTV becomes cheaper. But quality beams aren't exactly cheap and are fairly comparable in price to good quality cameras. So, as I touched on earlier, in what residential scenario would you install beams (or external tri-sginal PIR's), as I was proposing originally, over a quality 'smart' CCTV system as you have demonstrated?
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3 minutes ago, al-yeti said:
I say your using beams wrong way
How you going to mount them where exactly?
Could you expand on how I would be using these in the wrong way? They would be mounted on opposing walls either side of the boundary.
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4 minutes ago, PeterJames said:
Just set the notification on your phone loud enough to wake you up. Mine has never woke me up yet, but as far as I know nobody has been in my garden at least not approaching the entrances. AI is fairly new to be fair beams will continue to sell for a while but the technology is getting cheaper and cheaper I have face recognition numberplate recognition and allsorts on my NVR but thats only because I need to know how it works not because I use it. With the smart search I can search for someone wearing a yellow top, or a hat with vehicle search I can search a red or blue car its very clever and getting cleverer by the minute
In your experience, have car lights and sudden changes in cloud cover been an issue with FA, as per @norman's reply above?
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11 minutes ago, PeterJames said:
Both Dahua and Hik (Although I am less familiar with the latter) have really good AI with quite a low FA rate. The good thing is they send a picture to your phone and so you can visually confirm the activation rather than having to log into one app to find out which beam then into another to find look at the camera. They can be set up to detect humans or vehicles you can put a trip wire on the screen that is similar to a beam and determine the minimum and maximum size you want it to report.
My set up ignores my dog in the back garden (and foxes) but I know when my wife is bringing the washing in. If anyone approaches my back doors or out buildings I get notifications on my phone. I have the tripwires and intruder boxes set up so they only alert me after 18.00 and before 0630 weekends and 24hr weekdays (ive had to change that since lockdown though) The recorder beeps if anyone approaches the front door 24/7. The only time I had false alarms was when my patio furniture cover blew half off the furniture, but to be fair I needed to know that happened so I didnt mind. I have turrets so spiders are not a problem either.
CCTV has really changed, it used to tell you what had happened it now tells you when something happens in realtime.
Steady on
.
So as a form of notification, would you say that CCTV should result in less FA's than external beams, even at night? How can I expand on the system of mobile push notifications to result in a loud alarm/chime being heard inside which has a chance of waking me up? Or could this be done in-app on the mobile (i.e. android)?
If CCTV is as reliable as you attest, in what scenarios are beams still used? Long open spans of farmland, wide open commercial spaces, etc.? Whereas in most residential situations, CCTV should be a superior option?
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22 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said:
Security is about layers start from the core and work out.
If the perimeter system fails to operate or false activates and cries wolf all the time your left with nothing for your investment (both time and money).
You can buy all the "best kit in the world" and apply it wrong you'll still have a poor system.
I'm using the "core" as being the exterior boundary to the property (i.e. the beams). If that primary system fails, the external PIR's facing towards the entrance doors should activate. If these secondary layers of security fail, the internal sensors/PIR's (to be installed at a later date) will provide the final level of defence. However, by the time anyone has gained entry, it's already mostly too late (IMO).
The CCTV being used instead of the beams/external pir's is a spanner in the works (as per my other thread). But it could be argued that if used in isolation, these are only providing one level of security as opposed to fitting in between level 2 (external pir's) and level 3 (internal pir's and window/doors sensors).
Although I may be missing what you're trying to get across with your reply
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5 minutes ago, MrHappy said:Anything outside is going to FA, if it doesn't FA its not going to detect anybody
I fully expect this. But would you therefore advise that it's a waste of time/money installing?
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2 hours ago, al-yeti said:
No pirs? Window sensors, bell box? You think the external sensors will fa allot? Or you just using them as a notification?
The priority for the time being is to 'secure' the perimeter and outbuilding. I'd rather be notified that someone is lurking outside before they actually try to gain entry. However, in the future I may wish to expand the system to include internal PIR's, shock sensors, a bell box, etc., hence opting for the Enforcer panel now.
1 hour ago, sixwheeledbeast said:Spotted your initial post but I wouldn't personally use hardly any of the kit you posted about.
It also seems like a bit of an odd setup to be asking these questions. Sounds like some early warning system that may false alarm a lot, as above.
I can help with the Optex beam question a little, the SL version comes with an extra external housing and has more power options (i.e you could wire power).
Would say all the extra features would be unnecessary for domestic situation tho, they are both decent wireless beams with more than enough beam range for most domestic applications.
Could you expand on what makes this an odd setup in terms of securing a boundary and external access points? The idea behind the beams is to limit the number of false alarms. Although I appreciate the PIR's won't be as effective.
Thank you for confirming the difference between the beams. If I do opt for these, I'll go with the SL version to allow hard-wiring in the future.
1 hour ago, PeterJames said:I would use the CCTV as the perimeter security, set up properly it will only notify you if it sees humans
I've done my best to research the pro's and con's between using CCTV vs beams and came to the conclusion that beams are less likely to FA and more likely to capture any human movement. I am assuming your experience is the opposite to this? I'm not interested in CCTV being used as evidence of any breaches/crimes (as we all know this is futile), but I am interested in using it to confirm any notifications (from broken beams or otherwise). However, if CCTV can indeed work as efficiently as beams and external PIR's, I'd much rather opt for these as a simpler (and potentially lower cost) setup.
49 minutes ago, james.wilson said:I'd use the optex beans but not the pyronix stuff. You might want something more powerful/flexible than an enforcer it's a basic cheap panel
What would your suggestion be? Bearing in mind the access to tech/installation manuals for a non-alarm trade.
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The model numbers are clearly made to confuse the end consumer retail market, and they do a good job of it
. But definitely don't want cheap and cheerful, something along the lines of a 5MP DS-2CE72HFT-F28 or 8MP DS-2CE78U1T-IT3. Or would you not class that as premium?
Hik Acusense G2 Turret With Strobe Light And Speaker - DS-2CD2386G2-ISU/SL
in CCTV & Access Control
Posted
Thanks MrHappy. You seem to have missed the crux of what is being asked here:
Are Hik known for releasing product information way in advance of actual product release dates?