fastalarms
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Oh and lastly ...
I have been on the coopersecurity site but there are no installation manuals to download for the i-on16.
I wish to start installing this system but xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Many thanks Mark
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I knew when I first posted that I would recieve posibly a frosty reception I even said so on the first post that it was likely to be a baptism of fire.
However I am very pleased to see that I have also found a place where I will be able to get good advice when needed. I have had a more positive response than negative so thanks to all for that.
I am in a catch 22 situation , even when I start adding the 6662 grade 2x systems I will still be battling against convention as insurers will insist on NACOSS or SSIAB to their policy holders so I will still have to try and work on price to gain business. its going to be another tough year and I will probably need to get a day job and run the alarms evenings and weekends until I reach that stage.
With the YALE stuff I only need to double my current level of installs to have a secure footing but wether that is possible I don't know as the market size is unknown to me as a newby. certainly some weeks I get six to do and then other weeks I get zilch.
Certainly the home alarm business is suffering from the credit crunch right now thanks to less people moving home. 50% of my clients are people who have been burgled the rest was split 25/25 with people who had moved house or people who decided they wanted am alarm before they get burgled. The people moving homes part has definately tailed off and certainly some alarm companies near me who were running a few vans and staff installing to new build estates with contracts will be laying off staff and activily seeking the same private clients I will be trying to get with the 6662 stuff I will be offering so I don't think it will be an easy ride.
Onse again thanks for your advice..you will be hearing from me when I get stuck installing a powermax.
The one thing that is for sure is they won't be as easy to install as the YALE. I hear the scanny ion16 is an easy install so hopefully my local supplier will have those in stock too.
Mark -
To all. I am reviewing the advice I give to clients.
Legally it still does seem to stack up but I may alter the wording to make sure I am not unintentionally placing anyone in a potentially worse position.
I will get the advice of some loss adjusters and insurance companies on Monday.
The comparison I have posted up on my site was not actually made by myself but was helpfully (for me) provided by the alert me group whose comparison chart actually made the YALE system look better.
I agree it is apples and pears. The YALE pir is a one size fits all solution and doesn't meet the need of every scenario, If there are specific environmental issues then the YALE may not perform exactly as a bespoke solution would. Fortnuately by dealing with domestic properties those situations are rare and are worked round as neccessary. I have indeed suggested to clients if I don't think the system would cope due to distances between pirs etc that they really need someone else in and have walked away from money I could have taken.
I thank you all for your concerns even those I have hit a loggerhead with.
Thanks for pointing me to the best wholesaler for the 6662 sytems also I just hope I can still provide something within reach of my existing client base financially.
Mark
This is the legal advice I have been given so far..
An Insurer can only decline a claim on the grounds of Non Disclosure of Material Fact if that non disclosure has a direct connection with the cause of the claim. This is enshrined in the FSA Regulations, which FOS use as basis for their adjudications.
If your policy does not carry an alarm warranty,then no insurer can sucessfully decline because you have fitted an alarm, and then not set it.
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It is nothing to do with premium reduction and it is nothing to do with insurance requirement for an alarm or whether it's NACOSS or SSAIB, it's a question of whether you are taking reasonable care of your property - if you have an alarm fitted and you do not set it (even where it is not an insurance requirement) you have not taken reasonable care of your property.
So what would you say to your insurers if you were burgled and they asked you if you had set your NACOSS alarm at the time?
Whatever the truth was. I am not a dishonest person. besides every Nacoss approved 6662 system should have a viewable fault log so it would be foolish to lie.
Whatever the truth was. I am not a dishonest person. besides every Nacoss approved 6662 system should have a viewable fault log so it would be foolish to lie.There would be no reason to lie as the alarm wouldn't be a condition of the insurance.
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We will agree to differ, I hope that your advice never backfires on any of your customers, whether the alarm is a condition of a policy or not use or non-use of it will almost certainly affect a claim.
I don't intend to stop here RJB I do want to give the best advice I can.
I am currently trying to find legal precedent for this in another forum who have lawyers on board.
If any of my customers called their insurance to say they had an alarm fitted.
The insurers would ask is it NACOSS
My customers would say no it isn't
The insurers would then say you can't get a premium reduction for that as it isn't approved.
What is the scenario then.
The policy continues as before or the insurance then tell the client their insurance is now void.
If the insurance refuse to accept the system how can they then refuse a claim because it wasn't set.
I would even go one further and even if I had a NACOSS system installed and serviced I would not tell my insurers.
I have teenage kids and I wouldn't trust them 100% to set it every time.
Hi RJB,
I have just recieved the legal definative answer.
The question of wether cover would be withheld is down to 'material changes' in the policy.
That is to say that if anything changes from how the policy contract was agreed the insurers need to be informed.
But that is in respect of any change being detrmental to the original contract. Ie having a new patio door fitted that doesn't have a BS lock when the original one did.
To withold the claim the insurance would have to prove that any material changes made were to the detrement to security and would have to prove that the changes made the property a higher risk.
It was suggested by the lawyer then any insurance company would find it very difficult to prove that adding an alarm added to the risk.
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It will be very clear if you are burgled when your alarm wasn't set/working or installed properly and your insurer finds out, all policies I have seen require that you inform the insurer of anything or any changes that may affect your insured risk.
It's not a question of whether an alarm is a condition of your insurance, it's a case of whether or not you are deemed to have taken reasonable care with you property.
Rememnber a few years ago Cilla Black was burgled and a payout for her jewellery claim was refused because she didn't have window locks fitted - similar situation.
If an insurer thinks that you did not take reasonable care then they may refuse to pay out all or some of your claim, this could be leaving a window open, not locking your car, not setting your alarm etc. etc.
The advice to not inform your insurer so that it doesn't matter if it's set or unset when you are burgled is wrong and is a failure in the duty of care towards a customer.
This has always been the case but with the current financial situation it is a foolish person indeed who takes risks with their insurance as insurers are going to be looking for more reasons to avoid payout than ever before.
The case re Cilla black is totally different I am afraid.
In her case having window locks fitted was a condition of her insurance.
You can get home insurance without having an alarm and where having an alarm is not a condition.
I hardly think any insurer could acuse you of not taking reasonable care if you have an alarm fitted that is not part of your policy conditions in fact they would see that you had taken extra care.
Conditions of my own insurance are 5 lever mortice locks to BS and window locks which I have.
My alarm isn't NACOSS but was installed by the electrician who rewired the house. I haven't got my alarm in as a condition of my policy because my insurers wouldn't accept a non NACOSS alarm therefore I currently do not benefit from any reduction in my premium for having an alarm.
The insurers can't have it both ways.
They cannot insist on NACOSS and if someone tries to get a premium reduced refuse it but then magically want to 'include' the alarm when it suits them.
With all due respect I belive you are wrong on this issue.
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hmmm the answer is not as clear cut as it seems.
Just been looking at some online insurance quote sites and the questionaires differ wildly.
Some don't even ask if you have an alarm before offering your quote.
Some ask wether you have a NACOSS service contract
and some wether you simply have an alarm or not.
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Explain to me how that isn't witholding information in the event of an insured loss.
I am not telling them NOT to tell the insurance company they forgot to set it.
I am telling them it may pay not to tell the insurance comany they have an alarm.
They are more than welcome to tell the loss adjuster that they forgot to set the alarm when he asks but since it isn't a part of the
the contract it cannot be held against their claim.
If there is no requirement under your insurance policy to have an alarm set because you haven't claimed a premium reduction or the insurance company haven't specified you need an approved alarm then the alarms
failure either by failing to set or malfunction cannot be held against a claim.
If I have something wrong here does anyone have any actual case file notes or precedent.
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I'm not commenting on the Yale system, it would apply to any system.
Encouraging a customer to give false information or conceal relevant information, e.g. 'It doesn't matter if you get burgled when you've forgotten to set your alarm because you haven't told them you've got an alarm" is encouraging them to probably break the terms of their insurance and possibly be guilty of fraud.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time, though if that's what you're getting I'm not surprised, in this instance I am trying to help you avoid trouble for yourself and your customer - you can take the advice or leave it but if you leave it you leave yourself wide open to trouble.
Thanks fella , I still don't understand how installing an alarm and not telling your insurance would lead you open to their refusing a claim.
If they had fitted one of my alarms and then claimed it was NACOSS I could understand a big problem.
I am not telling them to defraud or decieve their insurance company. I am just pointing out that if you fit an alarm and don't tell your insurance you are then safe from any accusations of failing to set it.
Having an alarm fitted unless you are claiming an insurance reduction is no more notifiable than changing a light fitting.
Unless there are any legal bods on here who could shed light on this?
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I haven't missed anything, it is normally a requirement that the insured informs the insurer of anything that may affect the risk being insured, failure to do that will breach their insurance terms and render them liable to no or reduced payout in the event of a claim.
That has nothing to do with whether or not the alarm is an insurance requirement.
Additionally failing to provide an insurer with all relevant information surrounding a claim could amount to fraud, so advising them that, "If the insurance aren't notified that an alarm is installed then there is no argument about wether it was set or wether it failed to work and therefore no argument about the client getting a claim settled", is not only irresponsible and unprofessional but it could also make you complicit in a fraud.
Your actions may be well-meaning but they are wrong and you should stop immediately.
With all due respect I totally fail to see where your logic is coming from.
Are you actually saying that fitting a YALE alarm actually INCREASES your chances of being burgled.
Are you suggesting that anyone who fits a YALE alarm as a DIY fit has voided their insurance?
There is no fraud in telling a client that he is better not to have an alarm listed on their policy as if they fail to set it could predjudice a claim.
Its common sense.
If they want an alarm the insurance needs to approve or one that will get them a premium reduction I tell them to go NACOSS.
I didn't expect an easy ride in here but I didn't expect to have every stone turned looking for any crumb of discredit no matter how implausible.
I simply said the YALE alarms aren't as bad as you guys make out.
I said they fit a niche in the Market
I asked for the details of a scantronic 1on16 wholesaler (which noone has supplied so I assume you don't really want me to 'better myself')
I haven't criticised you guys
Many of your alarm companies in their seminal days will have had all sorts of bodges done to save a buck I am sure plenty of you giys who have been in the game long enough can tell me stories that you laugh about but would make an NSI inspectors hair curl.
I don't need any slack cutting I am a big boy now.
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Who goes when you are away on your hols?
I think you could answer that last question yourself.
Holidays? can't afford them..yet
re the second point I meant has a professional installed one to see how they operate or to see how a well installed one performs.
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When we fit an alarm it comes with guarantees.
For example :
If the equipment fails to perform, we are liable (& insured for that risk).
If we fit/site the eqpt incorrectly, we are liable (& insured for that risk).
If the customer calls at 3am xmas day, someone will answer the phone and if need be go to site at 3am xmas day cos among other things local authority will arrange for someone else to go at 3am xmas day and invoice customer who inturn will look to us for reimbursment of authority fee + money back on alarm etc.
Your 1st post says it all:
fitted 80 in 8mths. How many will last 8 years (even a couple of years)? or much beyond the 12mth guarantee the manufacturer gave you.
Have you thought about fastdoubleglazing. (though I understand that is now covered by document L of the building regs, whole different story)
Toot is toot and cant be excused.
I can't help the 8 months I am a startup!
After 12 months unless you supply a system with a longer manufacturers warranty you too would only replace faulty items on a basis of cost plus an installation fee on a time paid basis. You are all businesses.
YALE are covering the 12months warranty and have replaced FOC the only item that has failed to date without question.
YALE have suggested a battery replacement in 2-6 yrs for the systems so they must have some faith in their longevity.
I am the man who goes when needed at 3am as my clients despite what you are suggesting are important to me.
Out of interest has any professional installers ever installed a 6000 series yale either a 6300 or 6400?
That is both irresponsible and unprofessional and if you do have 'full insurance', including efficacy, (which I doubt) probably invalidates your own insurance. When one of your customers doesn't get paid out following your bad advice, I doubt they will think that it was money well spent.You seem to have missed the bit where if they ask for insurance approved systems I point them towards an approved installer.
You also have missed the bit where if they approach their insurance it wouldn't be an accepted alarm anyway.
By not lodging the alarm with the insurer they have in fact belt and braces.
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Fastalarms
Just for clarity from our point of view a NACOSS NSI Gold certificated audible alarm (wired or wireless) would be around
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The first bit about owners not changing them I totally agree.
I'm afraid I take exception to the last bit here, all professionally installed alarm systems that I've ever come across come with a service contract, one or two visits a year as required when the battery/s would be fully tested/checked as necessary, I must change 400+ a year, everything from 1.2 all the way up to 17.0AH, so don't suggest that the pros don't do their job.
I meant the owners woudn't keep up with their service contracts not that engineers wouldn't replace batteries..
jeez..lol I am making a mess of this aren't I.
For the record I am noy criticising pro installs or installers
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Im be surprised if you have insurance for failure to perform based on your figures alone you couldnt afford it and make a living from what your doing.
If the unthinkable happens your going to be in deep poop if the client takes you to court.
And while you assume that your not taking business away from from a proffessional company, if a potential client has quotes from companies, approved or not and you come along with your DIY system offered as a proffessional system some are going to take you up on it.
I hear what your saying about the costs etc and understand why your doing it but the risk your taking is massive and sooner or later you might get bitten.
I have full insurance and also sell online for other revenue. Yes its hard to get a business off the ground but I don't intend to give up just yet.
I do wish to install grade 2x systems too and am just costing them up at present.
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Why, when you say Yale is so good?
Not because I don't see a market or need for the YALE or because I am wary of installing them but purely to expand my customer options.
I am actually a good guy and I do want to make people feel secure. I know I will be getting dismissed as your prefered term 'cowboy' at present but I am starting a new business in the teeth of a recession and aim to expand and employ staff. Its not easy not least because of doubts about your product by others hence another reason to include a recognised system.
YALE with a little more work could produce the right system but it depends where they intend to market themselves.
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Some of what you've said so far, although a bit misguided IMO was your opinion and fair enough, we're all entitled to that ....... but you're now talking tosh. We (and other approved companies) fit many audible alarms for much less than that and with no committed ongoing costs, or with a small optional annual charge.
It depends on the system they wanted. If its not simply a two PIR ,one dc, a panel and an SAB then costs do start to mount.
If someone wants monitoring then the costs are there..
They may want monitoring but by the time they have added some extra PIR's , some remote fobs , a remote keypad it just starts to get expensive for the client who would then look for something else.
I have mentioned
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as im sure you will see the bulk of the pros onthis board (including myself) will strongly disagree that that type of system is a good one, IMO it gives a false sense of security. There is much more to that unit being made complaint with 50131 than the things you suggest and i dont think the hardware is caperble of being compliant.
as you have said the powermax is a fine product and is well priced. The std bell is a fully wireless bell on the powermax not a powered one but a powered one is available.
If you were to install one and see what a real product is like i doubt you would still recommend it. While im sure they do have a market I find it difficult to see how you can say how great they are when it is all you install. If i installed telephone systems and only used wet string and yoghurt pots then id think that was the way to go (cheap you see and better than nowt) but as hod no experience of a telephone i couldnt compare.
My biggest concern is that some of these systems seem to use the bellbox as the panel. ie outside totally unprotected etc.
But im glad you like them and hope one never fails to perform and you get held accountable.
James
I agree with everything you have said.
I do however have a concern that people could miss out on security simply because they don't bother.
If someone has a quote for a NACOSS or SSIAB system and it comes out at
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50 Alarms giving you trouble out of 500 is not very good if you ask me.
Come on somebody has to say it............they are junk!
Sorry you have misread the posts.
I have installed 80 in the last 7 months and have had no issues other than reported in the first post.
The only false alarms have been by user misuse , ie forgetting its on , not shutting doors etc etc.
What I actually said was with no problems with 80 systems out there working I would be happy to be responsible for 500.
I didn't actually say I had problems with 50. I have problems with none!
They are easy to dismiss purely on grounds of price.
I have spoken to YALE and suggested some improvemments.
It wouldn't take much to make these systems grade 2 compatible.
A change to 868mhz , a longer fault log , and dual tech PIR's. I would like the addition of a shock sensor too to the range.
They have anti Jam technology and trigger on receipt of a 433Mhz signal.
They have 16 million codes
They are tested at a full range of temps.
It's horses for courses.
I know we would all love to have Farrow and Ball paint on our walls but sometimes we have to do with Dulux or Homebase basics.
If these alarms weren't available then there would be a whole swathe of the population without any protection.
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I wouldn't fit a yale system even if it was compliant. I love ripping them down and dropping them off at a tip when we install one of our alarms. With yale equipment you don't get options compared to the panels we use. For instances double knocking a zone or if we get false alarms from a zone (very rare) we can put on a soak test period. Alarm panels compared to yale have a long life battrey span enabling to keep the system going in event of a mains failure. Also with yale system you can only use there Pir equipment with conventional alarm panels you can use most of any alarming equipment where needed. So I'm sorry I don't share your views on this.
The YALE panel gives 10hrs standby.
Ok the fault log is only 30 items but its enough to spot a fault reoccuring. Fortunately I have only ever had to read a fault log once.
It was mentioned what if I had 500 out..
Its a fair point. However if I had say 8 of the 80 giving problems I would expect 50 of the 500 giving trouble too but since none of the current 80 give trouble I would be happy to have 500 out without a worry.
There are foibles I have discovered that are not in the manual but I know how to work around these.
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As for installing other systems. I am currently looking at what else to add to my installation menu.. the scantronic ion16 looks good. The pwermax also looks ok other than the need for the 240v for the siren. Putting spurs in downstairs near the supply is no problem. trying to find a ring main in an attic is altogether different.
I am shocked at how much the systems add up to in parts alone. I guess I have found the best provider for the ion16 but its still
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So, your point is???
It's just a subjective and quite objective view to counter the kind of remarks that seem to come readily on these forums whenever YALE are mentioned.
I suspect YALE have not been prosecuted under the sale of goods act..
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Hi this is my first post here and to be honest after viewing the forum it is likely to be a baptism of fire.
I would like to give a more subjective opinion of the current range of YALE security alarms than I see posted on these pages.
I have been installing YALE wirefree alarms for just over 8 months.
If anyone will have an idea about how reliable these systems are then I volunteer other than YALE development staff to know as much as anybody, so what has it been like?
I have installed over 80 YALE systems a more or less 50/50 split between the 6200 and 6400.
They have been installed in everything from a council flat to a large detatched house ranging from a system with just one door contact and two pir's and a siren to auto dialling systems with two SAB's, two linked smoke detectors , four keyfobs ,a remoted kepad, five Pet friendly PIR's and five standard PIRs with space for a few more zones too.
When I install these systems I give 12 months parts and labour warranty.
So , I guess you are all wondering how I am getting any sleep with all those systems malfunctioning all over the place , failing and generally giving both the owners and myself a distinctly hard time.
The truth is they haven't.
In all from the 80 system I have fitted I have only had to attend to the following faults. I x external siren that bleeped with the battery fail warning despite being new. (Replaced by YALE foc , even got a couple of free PIR's for good will). and a remote keypad that had supposedly failed. (I noticed teeth marks on the unit and a guilty looking dog.) I still replaced the unit at my cost for good PR.
Any other problems..... Well of course CATS... only twice but both times the cats were getting too close to the PET FRIENDLY sensors. One as it came downstairs and I had mounted the Hall sensor too close to the treads and one wher a cat actually went to sleep on a bookshelf next to the sensor... how it got up there?
Two more problems were both caused by door contacts. The spring of the tamper sensor pushing the contact from the doorframe when the adhesive had absorbed moisture. (All contacts are screwed in now) one from cooking steam the other by wicking moisture through a wooden door frame that wasn't painted.)
I have only had one customer burgled since the alarms were fitted and the alarm functioned as specified bringing his neighboour out. Sadly the neighbour believed the gentlemen in the back garden who were dressed as and claimed to be security guards checking the house...you can guess the rest.
So there is experience from the other side of the fence.
I have all the tools neccessary to complete the tasks needed and work in a professional and friendly way. I also have fitted to refered customers.
I know you will say.. they are rubbish and get a NACOSS alarm.
My local police won't endorse me as I am not NACOSS.
The truth is not everyone can afford a NACOSS fitted alarm and ironically they live in the highest crime areas.Not many 86 year old ladies living alone can climb ladders either so I am providing a neccessary public service.
I also know how to fit properly preventing the errors a first time DIYer would commit before taking the system back to the shop saying it didn't work.
So ther you have it..
I have a feeling this could be a long thread...
Mark
Yale Ain't So Bad
in !!..DIY Installers..!!
Posted
No probs I will ask at Garduner when I go get a system to play with first.