Service Engineer Posted May 21, 2004 Author Share Posted May 21, 2004 Regardless of what the consumer wants, as far as this site is concerned our hands are tied, because of threats of legal action by certain manufacturers we cannot be seen to be distributing engineer information to alarm users. When this site was 1st started I made every manual available to anyone that wanted it, all they had to do was ask, as its my opinion that a customer should not be held to ransom by its security installer. Indeed if the customer feels he has the required knowledge to look after and maintain his own system, then I cant see any reason why he shouldn`t be allowed to do so, but his insurance company might. In fact a lot of systems are not very complicated at all and the engineer instructions would be very easy to follow even for a layman. It is my belief that manufacturers and installers dont want this information made available because the public would see just how easy most alarm systems are to silence, disable and default. ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.paul Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 If you go and buy a new TV, do you get the Engineers manuals? Try phoning Sony up and asking for a Engineers manual so you can fix the TV yourself. If you buy a new car, try asking the manufacturer if you can have the full Engineers manuals, just in case you need to fix it... Why don't they give out Engineers manuals? Maybe people would see how easy it was to fix their cars and see how much a rip off a garage was... but you can buy a Haynes manual (or equivalent) These are not supplied by the manufacturer! and you have got to buy one So what's the difference between a alarm panel and a TV etc, why should one have a Engineers manual and one not have a Engineers manual... I don't think there is an easy answer to this, but if a manufacturer thinks their panels is easy for the end user to install/program etc, then its up to them to supply the manuals to the end user, not the installer... jpaul There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Affinity Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 but you can get the manuals from sony on the net though Is this another watch this space topic??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.paul Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 but you can get the manuals from sony on the net though But can you get them from Sony? http://www.sony.co.uk/support/faqinstmanuals.asp It dosen't say you can have the Engineers manuals.. But maybe I'am looking in the wrong place... jpaul There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Service Engineer Posted May 22, 2004 Author Share Posted May 22, 2004 JPaul I think your missing the point slightly. If you go and buy a new TV, do you get the Engineers manuals? Try phoning Sony up and asking for a Engineers manual so you can fix the TV yourself.No you dont get the service manual, but you get a user manual explaining in great detail all of the features of the product you have purchased.You cant compare an engineer manual for fixing a TV to a an alarm engineers manual for programming an alarm, and if manufacturers had a Servicing and repairs manual for their products then i dont think you`d get one of those either. If you buy a new car, try asking the manufacturer if you can have the full Engineers manuals, just in case you need to fix it... Why don't they give out Engineers manuals? Another off the point example, engineer manuals DO NOT tell anyone how to repair there alarm system, they simply explain how to install and programme it.My point is that an Engineer manual simply tells a person how to program his alarm system, it does not tell them how to repair it. ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox UK Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 My point is that an Engineer manual simply tells a person how to program his alarm system, it does not tell them how to repair it. Couldnt of put it better myself!! Users should not have any installer/engineer manuals! Users should have the cut version normally called the User guide! Now, I wonder why the called a USER guide a user guide? And, I wonder why they called an ENGINEER guide an engineer guide? Warren Red Fox | Hosting Affordable and Reliable UK Based Web Hosting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CompostCORNER Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I'm sure in todays modern tecnological world, someone determined enough to want to have an engineer manual can find what he wants with enough persistence. My hobby for example. I am part of a scene that recreates real existing and long gone fruit machines that can be played on the PC. The manufacturers and the trade don't help us at all but we can find almost all the resources we need to recreate a fruit machine by looking in the right places on the internet. Persistence does pay as long as you are patient. I'm sure the point here is wether these forums offer engineer information to whoever asks. Me personally, I'd say no. Simply to avoid all the hassles that may come from providing such a service. Like I said, if you look hard enough, the manuals can be sourced somewhere. All this site will do in providing a service of offering manuals to the public is create an easy method to gain information that is difficult to get. I reckon such a service would also be open to abuse by those who want nothing else but an easy source to download anything and everything available for their own advantage. Can you see 'Mr Smith' just downloading a manual for his Menvier TS500? i'm sure he'll soon be back for more if only to see how other alarms fare. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.paul Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Another off the point example, engineer manuals DO NOT tell anyone how to repair there alarm system, they simply explain how to install and programme it.Hi DaveI think you have answered your own question, the engineer/install manual is designed for the person (whether it be a DIY'er or alarm engineer) who installed the system, its not designed for the end user...(unless they installed it themselves) The point I was tiring to make was that most end users don't want a engineer manual because they need to charge some programming, they want it because something has gone wrong with the system and they want to repair it.. I think this is something the manufacturer of the panels need to sort out, do things like entry/exit timers need to be in engineer programming or could they be changed from user programming..etc It would be nice to see what lads on the group that work for a manufacturer think about this. Whats the view's of SSAIB/NSI on giving engineer manuals to end users? As I said, "I don't think there is an easy answer to this, but if a manufacturer thinks their panels is easy for the end user to install/program etc, then its up to them to supply the manuals to the end user, not the installer..." jpaul There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gimmick Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 This appears to be a subject that can have extensive opinions and I feel obliged (nay . . just cheeky) to also pass on my own comments. From a Manufacturer's point of view, as have to consider support issues as well as system integrity. I agree with the common thread here that the Engineering Manuals should NOT be provided to the End User (sorry to the end user that started this discussion point). When you buy a hi-fi, you don't get the manual (in fact the Manufacturer generally refuses people access to electronic design schematics). When you get a mobile phone you have the manual on how to use it, but not the manual on how it works electronically. There is no direct comparison to this issue and other commercial products unfortunately. Owning a PDA might entitle you to some of the engineering documentation, but that is an electronic "tool" for organising your home or office. Here we are talking about a security system (commercial or residential) that is protecting both material assets and potentially . . peoples safety. If a "system" is modified by an End User to the point where it is no longer secure, where does the responsibility lie if there are problems in the future? If an End User has no "need to modify the system" as I have had quoted at our Support Helpine . . then why do they need the engineering manuals. In general we use our own judgement on the provision of Engineering Manuals, giving them out only to people who seem capable of determining terminology and the basics of electronics/electrics. If an End User asks for documentation simply because "they think they should have them", they are unfortunately refused (politely of course). This is because of my second concern . . the support issue. If we provide End Users with engineering documentation that is beyond their normal scope of understanding (non-industry or simply not up to the task) we are giving them an open invitation to make numerous repeat calls to any available Support Helplines, in order to resolve any problems that they may have. Since our Helpline does not provide direct support to End Users, providing Engineering Manuals is simply going to cause problems in the future when they call for help . . . only to be told that it is not policy to support End Users. Why did we provide the manual in the first place. There see . . . I rant again. Gimmick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Interlynx Security Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I can go into my laptop and tell you the settings for all my customers panels, Don't you think thats a bit dangerous? Carrying around top secret security-compromising data, on something as nickable as a laptop? What happens when all your customer's data is stolen? Does your efficacy insurance cover this kind of mishap? Ours doesnt!... We have been using biometric encrypted usb plugin thingies for our engineers. And they are only allowed one site at a time! At least we can only get sued one at a time!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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