Service Engineer Posted May 4, 2004 Author Share Posted May 4, 2004 Yeah Pete all your points are valid, and to be honest I doubt i`d risk another legal threat by letting the general public have access to the manuals. What prompted me looking at this post again was an email I received today of which below is an excert, the decision an reasoning to withdraw engineer manuals defeats the freedom of information offered by the internet and depleats the effectiveness of your site in a crucial area and this was from a senior person high up in a rather large installation company..... ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dale Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Protect your own back Dave, as will the guy from the big multinational pay your legal costs should you be sued under copyright infringment? Dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dale Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Plus don't forget, everyone of the members of public are going to say "Its my alarm - I should have a manual" as they dont understand the reasons why we need to protect these manuals from both incompetant medling end users and theives wishing to cercumvent systems. The industry needs to keep some things private, not only to protect our good names, but to protect our customers. If the manuals are freely available, then a) everybody would have a go at trying to fix a security system, creating more cowboys B) theives with a bit of intelligence would be able to work out how to shut an alarm off c) the industry would be blighted by false alarms and would look unprofessional. My two pence worth. Dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morph Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 I agree with Pete, the guys wrong, if the manuals are available on the manufacturers site then we point them in that direction. If we openly give them out and we are asking for trouble. Engineers manuals only to the trade. Most manufacturers dont sell to the public, so having access to an engineer manual is not very likely. As far as that guy is concerned, if the manuals are as accessable on the net as he reckons, then there no problem in us not providing them. I have said it before "do you get the workshop manual when you buy a car" of course not. Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateurandy Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Hmmmmm.... As an end-user I'm (predictably many of you in-the-trade professionals will say) going to disagree with some of the points made. I'm talking in the context of smaller installations, e.g. domestic. No-one in their right mind would expect an amateur to reprogram or fix a large commercial system. Firstly, it looks as if some of the comments are getting polarised to one extreme or the other. That's probably not going to be helpful as it's likely to alienate people from positive contributions to the debate. And it's beginning to sound a bit like restraint of trade. Secondly, the comparison to cars is rather spurious. The average car is many orders of magnitude more complex than a domestic alarm. And it can easily kill if not maintained properly (Yes, I know about mains voltages in alarms!) but you can buy a Haynes manual (or equivalent) and do a lot yourself. Thirdly, given the huge range of systems available, what opportunistic burglar is going to bother learning all the tricks necessary to defeat a myriad of systems. If He's really determined to get in somewhere he'll research the premises and system and take time to plan, and making manuals difficult for users to obtain won't make any difference. The user manuals only go so far, and the installation manual (again limited) can give much useful help to a "thinking" user. Beyond that you need proper training of course. Please don't dismiss out-of-the-trade as unthinking incompetents - I know you don't really, the existence of this forum shows that and the huge amount of help being given to people like me. My view is simple - the engineering manual is part of the equipment. It should be kept (securely if appropriate) by the user. If necessary it should have warnings about the consequences of changes made by untrained persons. But at least it will be there for the user to look at (and probably decide he needs professional help) and also it will be there for you when you get called out to a new client you have no records of. I might add that the installers left all the manuals for my gas cooker, hob, etc. and I'm not Corgi-registered and have no intention of doing anything to them, but I can at least understand the nature of some problems and have them for reference by a professional if I need one. As for cars; well I have a Ford and an Audi and have the workshop manuals for both on CD and a laptop that I can plug into the OBD sockets. I don't do major work on either, but I can identify problems and save a lot of time and effort at the garage. OK that's my 10 cents worth, intended to be constructive so don't take anything personally. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Service Engineer Posted May 7, 2004 Author Share Posted May 7, 2004 (not counting the respect I have for you of course)Â If only there wasn`t a Smilie on the end of that Statement. Thanks Pete But truthfully I do not have any intention of letting the general public or end user any access to the manual collection. It is now and will always be only available to those members who have proven themselves to be in the trade. I just thought i`d post that excert from an email i received after seeing how much the POLL result had changed. I do like to try and please everyone who visits this site, and this bit "depleats the effectiveness of your site in a crucial area" of his email bugged me.... ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gelert Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 as an end user, my contract is up at the end of the year but i was not suppied with a manual, when my contract ends i am sure i will not be given the manual even if i ask for one as they will want me to renew the contract so my question is this, can i demand the manual and if not supplied what is my next course of action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dale Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 If you demanded the install manual from me, my answer would be to contact the manufacturer as the installation manual is for the "INSTALLER", so there is no reason why they are obliged to give it to you. With some high end systems, manuals dont come with the install pack, as its too large, so you have to order it seperately from the manufacturer. As many have argued, and I agree with this point "Do you get the engineering manual for your car?", nope... "can you demand an engineering manual from the manufacturer?", ermm. nope as they will certainly laugh at you and tell you where to go. Its the same with PC's, do you get the source code to office 2000 so u can tweak it and change it to how you want it....I think not! Dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engineery Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 good point dale Any comments / opinions posted are my opinion only and do not represent those of my employer or Company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CompostCORNER Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Intruder alarms are household devices that are quite unique in my opinion. If your washing machine, TV, computer, car, or any other household item breaks down, the user has the opportunity to remedy the problem either immediately or many months in the future. The point being, the end user doesn't have to have to fix the fault immediately upon the fault emerging and be on the spot to have money ready to pay someone in the know, to fix the problem now due to it disturbing the neighbours. Many older alarms that were installed with SAB's that have no cut-off circuitry can hold their users to ransom if a fault develops as theres potential of a SAB unit sounding for hours as the onboard nicad discharges. Although getting less likely as the years go on due to the implementation of noise pollution regulations, many customers in this situation have no choice but to raise the cash for an engineer to call and rectify the fault immediately, or try to tolerate the noise and possible aggrovation from neighbours, especially during night hours. Of course, users who have alarms under service agreement can have a call within 4 hours to fix the problem but what about those who are not? Would it be a fair deal to offer these users the information to learn how to at least silence the alarm themselves? Would it be a fair deal to offer these users an installation manual in anticipation of such a fault with their alarm? Theres a valid reason why users should have access to their installation manual. But what about all your loyal customers who pay each and every year your service charge? Would it be a fair deal to give someone this information when he thinks his domestic security doesn't warrant a professional touch? Would it be also fair to hand out technical information to this person giving him the means to compromise all of your similarly installed systems of your loyal customers if opportunities arise? You maintain their alarm. You look after them. You give out possible sensitive documentation that can compromise your loyal customers alarm to someone who feels that the security of their premises is better in their own hands rather than yours, the alarm company. I'm all for letting joe public having the best deal but could you guarantee that such requested information was being used for personal means? Sorry. I've gone on a bit there. I think installation manuals shouldn't be handed out to the public. A possible compromise would be say 5 years after the requested control equipment has been removed from production by their manufacturers. But with many manufacturers using a standard menu tree across their range, I'm sure even discontinued manuals will contain information thats relevent to current equipment available including the more higher end units. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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