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7 minutes ago, PeterJames said:

The problem is in order to wipe it, or do anything to it they have to send someone to site, and they dont have engineers that work for nothing, nor vehicles that do not require any fuel or maintenance to get the engineer to your property, or any admin staff that work for free to organise it, and so on. To have engineer codes per customer would be a real ball ache, we have all thought about this over the years a code based on postcode or customer number. The thing here is, if this was the case and ADT gave out engineer codes to customers when they canceled their contracts it would not be long before the method of how the codes are generated is worked out, leaving all ADT customer vulnerable. ADT have a responsibility for all their customer, and less so for the ones that leave (they are no longer a customer) 

Later panels can be programmed remotely and panels can be defaulted remotely, but this is a fairly new development, and probably not available when your panel was installed.

 

ADT are not try to scam you, they are protecting their customers, and you are welcome to pay someone else to disable it, or try to disable it yourself, or just leave it where it is and not use it

 

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Programming..Have to say I was under the impression Honeywell supplied the bare bones and the engineer simply added the muscle etc.  I was in IT programming from the mid 70's so I'm interested in what language the engineer writes the program in and how he accesses the hardware because I'll probably have a fiddle when it's out?  Incidently, by wipe I mean't a proper one that takes a few days like the US gov standards. SSD's are lump hammer material though.

 

Peter, leaving it where it is and not using it would suit me but BT are swapping our phone to cable which it will react to as I suppose it would when the battery finally dies. Power outages set it bleeping and we have 2-3/annum.

Re the customer wipe code I suggested. Generation could be by the customer himself at installation thus the method of generation would be random as is the customers access code. As they do a lot of management online, I asked whether they could neutralise it online. NO. I have to say most of the security reasons applied to revealing the engineer's code are equally true of the customer code imho.

 

Incidently, I found and lost a Gov report suggesting that Engineer codes must be unique to the installation though whether that is the law yet I don't know.

 

 

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It's still a non-issue. The customer isn't allowed engineering codes for reasons already explained above, plus you can do what you need to without it anyway. It could be decommissioned without it being removed completely.

Engineering back doors or remote neutralising solutions into this stuff is a bad idea and simply not needed. If you had an external box like most non-ADT systems in the UK you would physically have to get up to it anyway.

 

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2 hours ago, meditek said:

Re the customer wipe code I suggested. Generation could be by the customer himself at installation thus the method of generation would be random as is the customers access code.

If the customer had the engineer code from the start, you move liability of the system working as it should to the customer. No insurance company will ever accept it because there is always going to be the worry that the customer deciding to meddle with the system themselves when say they want to move a detector due to decorating. They go into engineer and unwittingly they reprogram the system so that it doesnt work in the event of a burglary. What do you think they will do when they are burgled and the alarm didnt work?  I can hear my customers now saying "I have been paying all that money each year and the system didnt work when I was broken into, my insurance wont pay out so what are you going to do about it?" 

 

Then from the engineers point of veiw, I know that I would not feel happy being the last person to service an alarm system knowing full well that the customer has the ability to faff around in engineer mode after I have gone. The last engineer on site could get accused of sabotaging the alarm system (inside job) if a customer defaulted zones unwittingly then a burglary was to happen.  

 

As others have tried to point out, when you buy a security system, you are not just buying a few items that someone screws to the wall, you are buying an assurance that it will do what it was intended to do. Anyone can screw bits to the wall, programming and testing it to work correctly and understanding how the programming works is another matter.

 

If you want to know the engineer code of your alarm, fit it yourself or use a non accredited company to install it, you wont have anyone to sue if it fails to operate, but when you decide to get rid of it you wont have this problem. 

 

Anyway all of this is by the by as you have a man with a hammer coming to sort it for you.

 

Have you told your insurer that you no longer have an alarm btw? 

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1 minute ago, PeterJames said:

Anyway all of this is by the by as you have a man with a hammer coming to sort it for you.

 

Have you told your insurer that you no longer have an alarm btw? 

To summarise ^^^

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.


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1 hour ago, PeterJames said:

If the customer had the engineer code from the start, you move liability of the system working as it should to the customer. No insurance company will ever accept it because there is always going to be the worry that the customer deciding to meddle with the system themselves when say they want to move a detector due to decorating. They go into engineer and unwittingly they reprogram the system so that it doesnt work in the event of a burglary. What do you think they will do when they are burgled and the alarm didnt work?  I can hear my customers now saying "I have been paying all that money each year and the system didnt work when I was broken into, my insurance wont pay out so what are you going to do about it?" 

 

Then from the engineers point of veiw, I know that I would not feel happy being the last person to service an alarm system knowing full well that the customer has the ability to faff around in engineer mode after I have gone. The last engineer on site could get accused of sabotaging the alarm system (inside job) if a customer defaulted zones unwittingly then a burglary was to happen.  

 

As others have tried to point out, when you buy a security system, you are not just buying a few items that someone screws to the wall, you are buying an assurance that it will do what it was intended to do. Anyone can screw bits to the wall, programming and testing it to work correctly and understanding how the programming works is another matter.

 

If you want to know the engineer code of your alarm, fit it yourself or use a non accredited company to install it, you wont have anyone to sue if it fails to operate, but when you decide to get rid of it you wont have this problem. 

 

Anyway all of this is by the by as you have a man with a hammer coming to sort it for you.

 

Have you told your insurer that you no longer have an alarm btw? 

I have never suggested that the customer should know the engineer code from the start. My suggestion was that the customer should have a code of his own making to be used to shut down the system when he no longer required it  which would be as secure as his customer access code. I've left the handling of the system entirely to ADT when I required it but now simply want to disable it and nothing will convince me that ADT don't make it difficult so they can bag another £200. Not surprised as I feel my my mails have been scanned rather than read.

I do not have a man with a hammer coming either because I want the chips intact to amuse myself  with during this epidemic. I've noticed my electrician getting snide remarks here and don't like it.

I anticipated cancellation so insured the place with no alarm

Not had a sensible response to any of my other points as obviously you've all got vested interests in alarm systems and simply sing the lingo. My mistake coming here.

Bye

 

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, meditek said:

My suggestion was that the customer should have a code of his own making to be used to shut down the system when he no longer required it  which would be as secure as his customer access code.

 

cool, all you need to do is get in touch https://www.bsigroup.com/ & ask they rewrite the standards for you

 

40 minutes ago, meditek said:

I've noticed my electrician getting snide remarks here and don't like it.

 

 

is he's coming for free...... or are you using Robin Bastard Electrical ?

Edited by MrHappy

Mr😀 Veritas God

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Sing the lingo? You came with a closed shop and several people have tried to explain it's not as simple as your original post; you seem to just ignore verbose responses to the topic.

What did trading standards actually say then? You mention you spoke to them but considering this is general practice in the industry (written in the standards) then I don't see what action you think they would take.

Also feel free to contact NSI, which is ADT's inspectorate, maybe they can explain everything above in the right lingo.

 

 

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1 hour ago, meditek said:

My mistake coming here.

Wanting something we cant give, you wouldnt have known without asking 

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1 hour ago, meditek said:

My suggestion was that the customer should have a code of his own making to be used to shut down the system when he no longer required it

Your suggesting something that hasnt been invented and we as a forum have limited control over, also if someone entered that code by mistake it would be bye bye alarm 

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1 hour ago, meditek said:

Not had a sensible response to any of my other points as obviously you've all got vested interests in alarm systems and simply

You have, just because they are not wanted to hear doesn't mean they're are wrong. We make nothing out of helping people here but we are limited on the help we can give. Most of us have busy and profitable businesses, an ex ADT customer makes no odds to us if we could have helped you without breaking any rules we would have 

1 hour ago, meditek said:

I do not have a man with a hammer coming either because I want the chips intact to amuse myself  with during this epidemic. I've noticed my electrician getting snide remarks here and don't like it.

figure of speech I dont care if your offended its only words 

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19 minutes ago, PeterJames said:

also if someone entered that code by mistake it would be bye bye alarm 

 

DevotedPortlyCero-max-1mb.gif

 

there's is the visual & aubile warning on the melcom ?

Mr😀 Veritas God

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3 hours ago, meditek said:

I have never suggested that the customer should know the engineer code from the start. My suggestion was that the customer should have a code of his own making to be used to shut down the system when he no longer required it  which would be as secure as his customer access code. I've left the handling of the system entirely to ADT when I required it but now simply want to disable it and nothing will convince me that ADT don't make it difficult so they can bag another £200. Not surprised as I feel my my mails have been scanned rather than read.

I do not have a man with a hammer coming either because I want the chips intact to amuse myself  with during this epidemic. I've noticed my electrician getting snide remarks here and don't like it.

I anticipated cancellation so insured the place with no alarm

Not had a sensible response to any of my other points as obviously you've all got vested interests in alarm systems and simply sing the lingo. My mistake coming here.

Bye

 

 

 

 

 

Trust me, your pissy £200 is more of a hindrance to their operations than you care to think, non contract customers are a pain in the arse. 

1 hour ago, PeterJames said:

figure of speech I dont care if your offended its only words 

QFA 

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.


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So to summarise all adt systems need a kill code, this code will only be used at end of support? 

Burglars can't wait for that, look for a tired, non maintained bell, break-in then enter this kill code. What a superb idea all we need is some kind of sign on the outside 

Oh wait does this mean anyone with an adt bell outside could use a code to...... 

 

securitywarehouse https://store.securitywarehouse.co.uk

Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount.

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29 minutes ago, Amps said:

 

 

 

good old AMCO,

 

the outside bow will start to ring (nothing wired on the panel)

 

the panel is also wired grey neutral, brown earth, black live !

Edited by MrHappy

Mr😀 Veritas God

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Brown line - black neutral - grey earth but far from ideal I agree. Also 13A fuse but it is a test board I suppose.

Every system is different tho, what if there is no spur, I'm sure the average user would have more questions after watching than before.

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Posted (edited)

Hi folks,
I took a break to update myself and :-
a) I've aquired the Galaxy 2 install manual which
b) informs me that a complete power down  of the system restores the defaults such as the default engineer code ######
c)The manual also indicates that the tamper alarm can be stopped using the user code so plan is now
d)Leave mains power on, remove cover (zapping tamper noise with user code), zap 12v battery connection, remove mains power fuze, whilst holding pillow over internal sounder until my 'jobbing' electrician gets the battery out if it sounds. External is dummy.
e)remove phone line
f) hopefully this will leave a default system readily accessible by anyone with the manual.

No doubt there will be cries that it won't work but that was never my style.
I'll report on events later.

Edited by sixwheeledbeast
No codes in posts please.
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7 minutes ago, meditek said:

Hi folks,
I took a break to update myself and :-
a) I've aquired the Galaxy 2 install manual which
b) informs me that a complete power down  of the system restores the defaults such as the default engineer code 112233
c)The manual also indicates that the tamper alarm can be stopped using the user code so plan is now
d)Leave mains power on, remove cover (zapping tamper noise with user code), zap 12v battery connection, remove mains power fuze, whilst holding pillow over internal sounder until my 'jobbing' electrician gets the battery out if it sounds. External is dummy.
e)remove phone line
f) hopefully this will leave a default system readily accessible by anyone with the manual.

No doubt there will be cries that it won't work but that was never my style.
I'll report on events later.

 

remove mains power before opening lid,

remove battery within metal endstation,

any self contained bell (internal or external) will ring for 20mins if it has a cut out timer or until the battery is flat if it does not....

 

now sod off...... 🙂

 

 

 

Mr😀 Veritas God

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4 hours ago, meditek said:

Hi folks,
I took a break to update myself and :-
a) I've aquired the Galaxy 2 install manual which
b) informs me that a complete power down  of the system restores the defaults such as the default engineer code ######
c)The manual also indicates that the tamper alarm can be stopped using the user code so plan is now
d)Leave mains power on, remove cover (zapping tamper noise with user code), zap 12v battery connection, remove mains power fuze, whilst holding pillow over internal sounder until my 'jobbing' electrician gets the battery out if it sounds. External is dummy.
e)remove phone line
f) hopefully this will leave a default system readily accessible by anyone with the manual.

No doubt there will be cries that it won't work but that was never my style.
I'll report on events later.

Thought you said bye???

 

Complete power down will not default the engineer code , hammer will be better for alarm 

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6 hours ago, MrHappy said:

 

 

its a classic....

Theres a blast from the past, my favorite is the smokin floorboards, the stuff you could get away with before H&S started locking the cupboard under the sink

 

 

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