ttstick Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 I've recently had three separate issues where the leaf tampers (two on PA buttons and one on a small junction box) ended up causing wavering resistances (2k2/4k7 system reporting 4k0 or 9k0 resistances randomly) and caused tamper/ intruder alarms. I've tried everything possible to ensure terminations are secure and tight, conductors are making good contact with the terminals and the covers of the components are screwed down tight (not loose, not over tightened), in one case I resorted to adding a little more length onto the tamper leg to ensure it has good contact on the leaf which seems to have worked (and the tamper still functions as required). The only correlation I can see is that each fault occurred when the building was warming up/ cooling down; am I doing something wrong here? Could temperature changes cause these issues? Never had this problem with microswitch tampers that I can recall so I would like to think it's not my s**t wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 6 hours ago, ttstick said: I've recently had three separate issues where the leaf tampers (two on PA buttons and one on a small junction box) ended up causing wavering resistances (2k2/4k7 system reporting 4k0 or 9k0 resistances randomly) and caused tamper/ intruder alarms. I've tried everything possible to ensure terminations are secure and tight, conductors are making good contact with the terminals and the covers of the components are screwed down tight (not loose, not over tightened), in one case I resorted to adding a little more length onto the tamper leg to ensure it has good contact on the leaf which seems to have worked (and the tamper still functions as required). The only correlation I can see is that each fault occurred when the building was warming up/ cooling down; am I doing something wrong here? Could temperature changes cause these issues? Never had this problem with microswitch tampers that I can recall so I would like to think it's not my s**t wiring. What product? How and where is it mounted , pictures would be better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 6 hours ago, ttstick said: Never had this problem with microswitch tampers that I can recall so I would like to think it's not my s**t wiring. You've sort of answered your own question there - I'd avoid products using leaf tampers when you can TBH Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, datadiffusion said: You've sort of answered your own question there - I'd avoid products using leaf tampers when you can TBH Nah man , what about all the contacts and boxes cqr, knights many without switches all work well You ever use the flush stuff with a switch on it , they are rubbish imo although put in out of no choice in some cases Or he talking about something else? Tell me monkee Edited May 28, 2020 by al-yeti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 Haven't used contacts with leafs for years now, all G2 with switch, same for JBs it's all (mostly) only pennies. Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 I understand graded sensors have eol jumpers & jb's have tact switches due to wiring faults ? Personally I found adding resistors or leaf tampers worked for 10yrs + before EN Quote Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixwheeledbeast Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 Can't say I have ever had any issues with leaf tampers other than the fact they are easier to smash the lid off on JB's, relying on the one central screw. The more common issue I see are with these type are wiring not wrapped around the screw correctly or snapped or loose resistor lags making intermittent contact It's not mandatory to have switches but most have gone that way as it's easier to manufacture a break out back tamper. You also have the benefit of not seeing the faults above. I also wonder what brand and did you find any evidence to suggest it was the leaf at fault? For the cost of the device if your suspicious of it, may as well be replaced as part of whatever diagnosis you are doing, you have been called out anyway 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttstick Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) I'm beginning to think the leaf tampered stuff is more trouble than it's worth definitely... The two products are the Knight KP4 G2 Double Push PA button and Knight 8 - Way Junction Box. The Knight KP4 is wall mounted in a hallway, nowhere near any EM fields that could interfere with the reed, not in sunlight or above a heater or anything but it drops a few degrees at night, had one random activation where it went up to 4k and wavered for a bit between 3k/4k and then settled back down to 2k, but I did notice when installing if you don't screw them down tight enough the tamper resistance can slowly drift/ creep. The Knight JB mounted at high level in a garage, again nowhere near any EM fields that could induce EMF, not in sunlight etc. but the timing of the fault coincided with when the sun would start heating the garage up (again a few degrees, nothing huge). Same case of random activation(s) where it'd go up to 4k but this happened a few times. Took off the cover, cut a bit more out of the JB where a small grommit entered just in case this was expanding and pushing the cover up a bit, added a bit more to the tamper actuator so it had more travel, this seems to have done the job and not had any more issues for X weeks now. The timing might just be coincidence in terms of temperature fluctuations but not really any clue on anything else that could've caused it, the rest of the installation (around 20 other wired FSL zones) is rock solid and the cabling itself tests fine. I have a few more of the same products installed elsewhere on the property and had zero issues with them. Edited May 28, 2020 by ttstick Knight not CQR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 14 minutes ago, MrHappy said: Personally I found adding resistors or leaf tampers worked for 10yrs + before EN Yes but sometimes you just want to get in and out and not have to go back, and with the tact option usually comes proper terminals not screws. I find esp. when you are installing a system to crappy builder installed CCA you can just forget using screws anyway. Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttstick Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, datadiffusion said: Yes but sometimes you just want to get in and out and not have to go back, and with the tact option usually comes proper terminals not screws. I find esp. when you are installing a system to crappy builder installed CCA you can just forget using screws anyway. I'll take the cover off the PA that recently activated and give everything a retighten and check (and make sure the cover is tightened down proper) but yeah I think if it fails soak I'll put in a G3 microswitched replacement instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, ttstick said: I'll take the cover off the PA that recently activated and give everything a retighten and check (and make sure the cover is tightened down proper) but yeah I think if it fails soak I'll put in a G3 microswitched replacement instead. Dont froget to stamp on the broken one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttstick Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 24 minutes ago, Logan said: Dont froget to stamp on the broken one I normally burn a few resistors to keep away the spirits too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, ttstick said: I normally burn a few resistors to keep away the spirits too... Lol I haven't used leaf tampers for years used to have issues back in 4737 days Quote securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 56 minutes ago, ttstick said: I'm beginning to think the leaf tampered stuff is more trouble than it's worth definitely... The two products are the Knight KP4 G2 Double Push PA button and Knight 8 - Way Junction Box. The Knight KP4 is wall mounted in a hallway, nowhere near any EM fields that could interfere with the reed, not in sunlight or above a heater or anything but it drops a few degrees at night, had one random activation where it went up to 4k and wavered for a bit between 3k/4k and then settled back down to 2k, but I did notice when installing if you don't screw them down tight enough the tamper resistance can slowly drift/ creep. The Knight JB mounted at high level in a garage, again nowhere near any EM fields that could induce EMF, not in sunlight etc. but the timing of the fault coincided with when the sun would start heating the garage up (again a few degrees, nothing huge). Same case of random activation(s) where it'd go up to 4k but this happened a few times. Took off the cover, cut a bit more out of the JB where a small grommit entered just in case this was expanding and pushing the cover up a bit, added a bit more to the tamper actuator so it had more travel, this seems to have done the job and not had any more issues for X weeks now. The timing might just be coincidence in terms of temperature fluctuations but not really any clue on anything else that could've caused it, the rest of the installation (around 20 other wired FSL zones) is rock solid and the cabling itself tests fine. I have a few more of the same products installed elsewhere on the property and had zero issues with them. You need an installer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, ttstick said: I normally burn a few resistors to keep away the spirits too... Nah non vented capacitors on 2600 volts from a microwave transformer help keep the vampires away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttstick Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 1 hour ago, al-yeti said: You need an installer 3 zones needing a revisit on a freshly wired and installed Premier Elite 48 isn't that bad is it! :^) The JB (added a bit more to the tamper actuator) and first PA (tightening the cover a bit more) seems to be fine now to be honest, just that remaining pesky PA that I'm hoping will be resolved by a bit of tightening up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ttstick said: 3 zones needing a revisit on a freshly wired and installed Premier Elite 48 isn't that bad is it! :^) The JB (added a bit more to the tamper actuator) and first PA (tightening the cover a bit more) seems to be fine now to be honest, just that remaining pesky PA that I'm hoping will be resolved by a bit of tightening up. Maybe Edited May 28, 2020 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 1 hour ago, ttstick said: 3 zones needing a revisit on a freshly wired and installed Premier Elite 48 isn't that bad is it! :^) you must be doing something fundamentally wrong ? take pic of the problem item & TSI will advise / take the pish... Quote Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttstick Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 As requested! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixwheeledbeast Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 Bit of a daft place to fit a PA, you have to remove the PA from the wall to check anything inside the keypad. this means any readings you have taken in your OP are likely from the keypad and not with a meter too. It's also not where the cable entry is on the keypad you have made your own hole in the casing, it's unlikely but the PCB of the keypad maybe pressing on the cable causing an intermittent mystery resistance via some keypad component. I would say if anything the resistors are clamped too tight up to the ceramic this is where they are weaker and more likely to break. You could easily wire that double pole at G2 and job done with no discrete components flapping about inside. As for the PA in question I don't use them so can't comment but i would be inclined to use something more modern style, reed switches in PA's are so last century... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, ttstick said: As requested! Whats the point of the PA button above keypad as the keypad has a built in PA button by pressing 1 and 3 Edited May 28, 2020 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixwheeledbeast Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 18 minutes ago, Logan said: Whats the point of the PA button above keypad as the keypad has a built in PA button by pressing 1 and 3 Doesn't conform, not easy for customers to do/remember if under duress 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttstick Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said: Bit of a daft place to fit a PA, you have to remove the PA from the wall to check anything inside the keypad. this means any readings you have taken in your OP are likely from the keypad and not with a meter too. It's also not where the cable entry is on the keypad you have made your own hole in the casing, it's unlikely but the PCB of the keypad maybe pressing on the cable causing an intermittent mystery resistance via some keypad component. I would say if anything the resistors are clamped too tight up to the ceramic this is where they are weaker and more likely to break. You could easily wire that double pole at G2 and job done with no discrete components flapping about inside. As for the PA in question I don't use them so can't comment but i would be inclined to use something more modern style, reed switches in PA's are so last century... Not really much else place to put it since the keypad is essentially "boxed in" by CH pipes and LV cabling, any other location would've put it too close to LV cabling or put it straight across CH pipework unfortunately, but yeah it will be a pain to get the RKP off, didn't think of that! Fingers crossed that doesn't start playing up. Had a ratch around on the connections and it looks like one of the cable cores was a little shredded where I'd tightened it down too much, remade it off and checked the other terminations, see what happens. If it goes again I'll go the double pole route I think, got enough play in the cable. I metered across each termination and the resistances seemed stable, but I take the point about the potential for damaging the ceramic. One thing I noticed was some of the magnetic material had come loose from the mount on the PA button shaft, I do wonder if enough of that flapping about could have caused the reed to mooch around a bit. I did notice when tightening down there was almost an inverse bell curve between resistance and tightness, too loose and the resistance was high (obviously), just about finger tight and the resistance was spot on, another quarter turn and it started going up towards 3k/4k again. Cheers for the input! 25 minutes ago, Logan said: Whats the point of the PA button above keypad as the keypad has a built in PA button by pressing 1 and 3 Easier actuation than pulling down the keypad cover and aiming for numbers, generally more recognisable function/ device and easier to operate when unfamiliar with the system. Same reason emergency stops are a thing. Edited May 28, 2020 by ttstick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 @ttstick looking at the screw heads I'd assume your use the same screwdriver to terminate the button & the keypad ? If so I doubt the button or jb's connections will remain tight ? The texecom supplied resistor have really thing legs The cable & resistors are really short, do you terminate the cable conductor with a twist ? Quote Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttstick Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, MrHappy said: @ttstick looking at the screw heads I'd assume your use the same screwdriver to terminate the button & the keypad ? If so I doubt the button or jb's connections will remain tight ? The texecom supplied resistor have really thing legs The cable & resistors are really short, do you terminate the cable conductor with a twist ? They do look a bit rough admittedly, I was using a terminal driver that probably was too small for the job on the terminals, re-tightened with a better, broader flathead though. I gave them a bit of a twist to make sure they stayed in form as they went around the screw but nothing too savage, I did consider ring crimping but I think they'd have been too big to fit between the terminals, or at least interfere with the cover fitting/ tamper leaf clearances, and the cores are that small the crimps could've just added to the problem. Been sat at 2.19k for the past few hours now so see what happens in a few days time...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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