Scantronic 9651 Frozen?

[poissonchat24]

Greetings all,

I have recently installed a Scantronic 9651 system at my French inlaws house in, you guessed it, France. It was perhaps foolish of me to have installed my first ever system over a 1000 miles away, but the job is done... and the consequences must now be lived with. Any help will be much appreciated.

The system appeared to be working perfectly for 48 hours when set then unset in the usual manner, however I was called (when I got back to the UK) to say that the alarm was disarmed and then an hour later when unset it went into alarm by itself. The user could de-activate the alarm using a prox-tag however after this the system is 'frozen', it will accept neither a proxtag nor a code and simply displays 'B Disarmed'. If a proxtag is placed locally it simply beeps, but the system display does not change.

I have wired the system using screened 8 core cables, all earthed at the panel owing to the relatively close proximity of other mains cables to my field device cabling, I had a sneaking suspicion that induction could be a problem. Some cables are however in six core, the bell box being one (less mains cabling present) and some door contacts.

The French consumer unit is a very recent install (circa 6 months) and is 230v @ 50Hz.

I strongly suspect that I may have been the victim of a surge in the supply which has caused this erratic behaviour. As far as I am told Scantronic make a decent panel.

Key questions are:-

1) How can the panel be unfrozen? Would a 'cold start' be necessary, i.e. drop the mains supply, remove battery, replace battery, kick start, replace lid, reactivate supply?

2) What would cause the alarm to go off when unset?

3) How can I avoid this before all confidence is lost in the system (and me!).

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Jonathan

[arfur mo]

hi, is it a chateau we could talk turkey about a call out lol

i'm not up on this panel but i'd guess a tamper in area B.

if you did get your perent to restart it, what happens if it wont silence?

i also fear them getting a shock

Arfur

[sjsturner]

Greetings all,

I have recently installed a Scantronic 9651 system at my French inlaws house in, you guessed it, France. It was perhaps foolish of me to have installed my first ever system over a 1000 miles away, but the job is done... and the consequences must now be lived with. Any help will be much appreciated.

The system appeared to be working perfectly for 48 hours when set then unset in the usual manner, however I was called (when I got back to the UK) to say that the alarm was disarmed and then an hour later when unset it went into alarm by itself. The user could de-activate the alarm using a prox-tag however after this the system is 'frozen', it will accept neither a proxtag nor a code and simply displays 'B Disarmed'. If a proxtag is placed locally it simply beeps, but the system display does not change.

I have wired the system using screened 8 core cables, all earthed at the panel owing to the relatively close proximity of other mains cables to my field device cabling, I had a sneaking suspicion that induction could be a problem. Some cables are however in six core, the bell box being one (less mains cabling present) and some door contacts.

The French consumer unit is a very recent install (circa 6 months) and is 230v @ 50Hz.

I strongly suspect that I may have been the victim of a surge in the supply which has caused this erratic behaviour. As far as I am told Scantronic make a decent panel.

Key questions are:-

1) How can the panel be unfrozen? Would a 'cold start' be necessary, i.e. drop the mains supply, remove battery, replace battery, kick start, replace lid, reactivate supply?

2) What would cause the alarm to go off when unset?

3) How can I avoid this before all confidence is lost in the system (and me!).

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Jonathan

does the eng code work?

master user should produce something.

(1 your only option if truely frozen is restart)

(2 tamper alarms ie cover removed or cable damaged)

(you cant just bite the bullet and always double check programming!

[poissonchat24]

Thanks for the responses guys.

It's not quite a chateau, but it holds plenty of wine and it may be haunted

I am told that it won't accept anything, neither a master user nor an engineers code. I asked whether any yellow lamps were illuminated on the keypads (3 no. in total, star wired) and they told me no, so no tampers? I can't understand why it would go off when unset like that, the only thing I could think of was a power surge, but isn't the battery supposed to mop these up and smooth out the supply?

I'm not too concerned about him taking the lid off the panel and restarting it, he's handy with electrical wiring etc. My concern is that programming won't be his strongpoint, and that if we restart the panel, will reprogramming be necessary? Will the NVRAM still hold the data with both supply and batt missing for a short period? My other worry is that this will happen again in 2 days and I'll be no nearer in helping them. There's an engineer by the name of Monsieur Didier in the nearby city, I don't fancy him snooping around and wagging his finger at my handiwork...

Thanks again,

Jon

[sjsturner]

prog should still be there but depends on the extent of damage to the panel.should be ok.

it will need a restart but not a default restart otherwise programming will be lost.

and it depends on the surge ive seen them take out many panels including good fire panels!

always a shame

[Alarm Protection]

Not well into scanny equipment but a guy called Hpotter is on this site.

If it is a power problem i would suggest fitting 240v and 12v spkike surpressors into the panel.

act.co.uk

We only install the scanny I-ON and it is a good bit of kit

[9651]

Strange, we fit them aon our cheap systems, never had a problem recently? (very early UK's used to produce random tampers on zones 4 upwards if using eol resistors)

I presume its a EN version? What wiring did you use, old or cc?

I would also suspect a spike, maybe a power cylce and check back in the log? I'd also suggest a check for induced AC

Remeber years ago we installed a Karizma on a Vicarage, handed over no problems Later that night the area was hit by a thunderstorm, surged the panel, act of God?! Had to replace it next day lol!

[sjsturner]

Not well into scanny equipment but a guy called Hpotter is on this site.

If it is a power problem i would suggest fitting 240v and 12v spkike surpressors into the panel.

act.co.uk

We only install the scanny I-ON and it is a good bit of kit

agreed act kit is good.

never fitted a scanny ion but have m series with r node as a hybrid panel and works really well.

interested in trialling ion kit tho

[Alarm Protection]

SJ,

The Scanny I-ON has to be the best engineer/customer panel out there that has a good RKP.

We usually use Gardtec equipment but the I-ON is well up there as you can have a wireless RKP aswell as wired.

Tbh i dont like the Risco Agility so hybrid its the \\gardtec 595 and total wireless I-ON. Both kits ar

e good imo.

[Cubit]

SJ,

The Scanny I-ON has to be the best engineer/customer panel out there that has a good RKP.

We usually use Gardtec equipment but the I-ON is well up there as you can have a wireless RKP aswell as wired.

Tbh i dont like the Risco Agility so hybrid its the \\gardtec 595 and total wireless I-ON. Both kits ar

e good imo.

May i ask why you dislike the Agility?

[hpotter]

i'd check the clock wire between the panel & keypad, maybe trapped between keypad & backplate?

clock wire missing would prevent the display from updating, pad accepting codes etc as you describe.

if not sure, run a short cable to panel & hand hold the keypad etc.

[poissonchat24]

Thanks for this.

There are 3 no. keypads on the system, 2 no. are 43EN (i.e. Keyprox) and 1 no. is 41EN (no keyprox). If one of the keypads had a trapped or disconnected core, would this cause a problem on all keypads?

I'll ask them to perform a cold start tonight and see what happens over the next few days. I still have a sneaky feeling that supply spikes are upsetting the main PCB, but I want to find a catholic list of possible causes, clock wire may have some mileage.

Would a dodgy clock wire cause an alarm when unset? I suppose all these questions don't really have simple answers, I guess anything is possible.

[hpotter]

There are 3 no. keypads on the system, 2 no. are 43EN (i.e. Keyprox) and 1 no. is 41EN (no keyprox). If one of the keypads had a trapped or disconnected core, would this cause a problem on all keypads?

if it was the last one to be used, then yes. (others are still locked out by system as no refresh)

I'll ask them to perform a cold start tonight and see what happens over the next few days. I still have a sneaky feeling that supply spikes are upsetting the main PCB, but I want to find a catholic list of possible causes, clock wire may have some mileage.

check induced ac & mains earthing. as for spikes, got 9x5x systems running in steel fabricators (welding!) without issue (in uk, with goooood earth)

Would a dodgy clock wire cause an alarm when unset?

tamper.

even a power down/power up without defauling should get other keypads going, just make sure they use one of the other keypads first, thus locking out the dodgy one.

[poissonchat24]

Sounds like you have a plan!

The keypads are star wired (just referring to your words, 'last one') so in this sense I take it to mean the last one used, not the last one in a bus radial.

Induced AC did concern me, so shielded cables to a (hopefully) clean earth are used.

As for mains earthing, in restrospect I am suspicious about this given the look of the earthing rod etc.

Anyway, clock wires first and then we'll see

Thanks again hpotter, this gives me more confidence.

[hpotter]

The keypads are star wired (just referring to your words, 'last one') so in this sense I take it to mean the last one used, not the last one in a bus radial.

yes

As for mains earthing, in restrospect I am suspicious about this given the look of the earthing rod etc.

had some really iffy faults that turned out to be earthing probs, esp in remote farms etc

Anyway, clock wires first and then we'll see

i would. let us know how you get on.

[poissonchat24]

Hi All,

Apologies for not adding to this thread in some times, it isn't closed out, just dormant! As you appreciate the panel is in France so I am attempting to undertake the repairs / checks 'by remote control'.

I have asked for the panel to be hard reset, which has been done (effectively dropping power and re-booting). The panel displays now just show the software version number, all LEDs are illuminated, and no key input is possible. (Display shows Ver 4.00 Feb 15 2007).

I will do as suggested above and have clock wires inspected to see if this, or cable drain wire/shield is touching the PCB.

I'll post back shortly. What confuses me is why did the system work for several days and then suddenly develop this problem? Perhaps touching a keypad has maybe made contact, or a wire may have settled...

As I said, I'll have remedial works undertaken and post back.

Jon [poissonchat24]

[IAS]

Greetings all,

I have recently installed a Scantronic 9651 system at my French inlaws house in, you guessed it, France. It was perhaps foolish of me to have installed my first ever system over a 1000 miles away, but the job is done... and the consequences must now be lived with. Any help will be much appreciated.

The system appeared to be working perfectly for 48 hours when set then unset in the usual manner, however I was called (when I got back to the UK) to say that the alarm was disarmed and then an hour later when unset it went into alarm by itself. The user could de-activate the alarm using a prox-tag however after this the system is 'frozen', it will accept neither a proxtag nor a code and simply displays 'B Disarmed'. If a proxtag is placed locally it simply beeps, but the system display does not change.

I have wired the system using screened 8 core cables, all earthed at the panel owing to the relatively close proximity of other mains cables to my field device cabling, I had a sneaking suspicion that induction could be a problem. Some cables are however in six core, the bell box being one (less mains cabling present) and some door contacts.

The French consumer unit is a very recent install (circa 6 months) and is 230v @ 50Hz.

I strongly suspect that I may have been the victim of a surge in the supply which has caused this erratic behaviour. As far as I am told Scantronic make a decent panel.

Key questions are:-

1) How can the panel be unfrozen? Would a 'cold start' be necessary, i.e. drop the mains supply, remove battery, replace battery, kick start, replace lid, reactivate supply?

2) What would cause the alarm to go off when unset?

3) How can I avoid this before all confidence is lost in the system (and me!).

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Jonathan

yep - usually just need to power down, power back up to restart, is the keypad adress set correctly?

[poissonchat24]

Hiya,

Yes all keypads addressed correctly, tested and working at the time.

We have powered up and down several times now, the system only shows the version date and will go no further. Whilst pressing keypad keys gives a beep, it does not register with the system, i.e. no codes work, no screen refresh etc.

First of all, I'm going to have them check clock wires and put small boots around the ends of the screen cables within the keypads themselves, I have a sneaky feeling one of these drain wires may be touching the back of the PCB and earthing it.

,

Jon

[MrHappy]

(my opinion not the boards)

why on earth install something which is too far away for you to support ?

(even if there family)

[goodwin]

Thanks for the responses guys.

It's not quite a chateau, but it holds plenty of wine and it may be haunted

I am told that it won't accept anything, neither a master user nor an engineers code. I asked whether any yellow lamps were illuminated on the keypads (3 no. in total, star wired) and they told me no, so no tampers? I can't understand why it would go off when unset like that, the only thing I could think of was a power surge, but isn't the battery supposed to mop these up and smooth out the supply?

I'm not too concerned about him taking the lid off the panel and restarting it, he's handy with electrical wiring etc. My concern is that programming won't be his strongpoint, and that if we restart the panel, will reprogramming be necessary? Will the NVRAM still hold the data with both supply and batt missing for a short period? My other worry is that this will happen again in 2 days and I'll be no nearer in helping them. There's an engineer by the name of Monsieur Didier in the nearby city, I don't fancy him snooping around and wagging his finger at my handiwork...

Thanks again,

Jon

area B is haunted

[poissonchat24]

AN UPDATE TO THE ABOVE

(Mr Happy, in retrospect, yes you are correct although on the whole the learning experience has been a positive one.)

Having inspected the system I did as suggested above and isolated the keypads and attempted to control the system using only one good keypad. The system still failed to start at all and displayed only the software version, no key entry was possible.

I disconnected all circuits except the battery and a known good keypad, again the same issue.

On inspecting the motherboard PCB it appears that one of the components, a transistor / IC package at the top of the board location [iC5] with a small heatsink was extremely hot, to the extent that it had become discoloured. Adjacent to the IC5 package is an identical IC package [iC7] that is tied to a large heat sink plate at the top of the board.

The PCB appears to be charging the battery correctly, it powers all auxillary components correctly, i.e. PIRs, Keypads etc but is 'dead' in terms of being controllable or responsive. I've tried flashing the NVRAM to wipe it, no effect.

Interestigly one of the three keypads on the system has also 'died', although the other two appear fine, as do all PIRs etc.

Is it a surge? If so, then why is the boiler control equipment etc nearby (and equally complex) not fried? Is it a PCB failure that has also extinguished the life of a keypad on its way out? Is it just a faulty component? Who knows. I'll call their technical support (via my employers Touchpoint access) and post the results.

To be continued ad nauseam until it finally works. Its not really rocket science, and even when taking every available precaution, I didn't expect this degree of hassle for something from a good quality brand.

PS:- The datasheet for the component that is getting extremely hot is here

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/2143.pdf

It is a positive voltage regulator.

[9651]

Strange one. Did you take any MA load readings on the system in day full alarm state? (my guess not ) Could be pulling too much load, could be a trapped wire, pressure fault causing a load on something it shouldn't. Or, it could be a simple surge, and a replacement pcb will sort it. As for taking the keypads out, you wont know till you thrash a new pcb on really.

I had a M2000 the other week that wouldn't see any devices. Main house keypads worked, cottage didnt. Found the MPSU and RKPwere causing some sort of data conflict on the network line. Process of elimination really (and lots of running back and to to the house to see what happens when I disconnected /reconnected things lol) Anyway speaking to the gardener (owners away) there was a lightning strike near the house when it all kicked off. Main house fine though!

[s1myr]

Sorry, I realise this is an old post but I'm having the same problem. i.e. keypad is showing Ver 4.00 Feb 15 2007 but won't accept entries to get to installer mode.

Did this old post ever get resolved?

I installed my 9651 a few weeks ago and all worked fine. I added an extra PIR today and as I closed the panel I accidently pulled out the external bell tamper return. The external bell went off and would not stop even when the TR wire was replaced. I had to pull the mains and battery and then reconnect to get the external bell to stop.

However since then, the keypad only shows Ver 4.0 0 Feb 15 2007.

I've tried various power up methods, removed extra keypads, removed the new PIR and still the keypad only shows this.

The keypad buzzes on power up and stops after first number entered. The keypad allows me to enter 6 numbers only (which don't show on the screen) and after that it just bleeps every time I enter another number.

I'd like to try avoiding doing an NVM reset if at all possible.

One extra bit of info, the internal 660 dialler is continually dialling out since I pulled the bell TR. I've had to temporarily take off the communicator connector to stop it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[james.wilson]

Sounds like your keypad and panel are not communicating. Are those connections correct

[s1myr]

They were communicating fine for the last couple of weeks. It's only when I tried to add a new PIR and I accidently pulled the bell TR out when I was closing the panel as described above that this problem has occurred. The keypad wires were not disturbed. I have two keypads and have even tried removing one to see if that resolved it.