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Ats Levels And Failure Reporting Times


james.wilson

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Don't the insurance companies dictate how often the device has to poll ?

Thought it where defined in 50131 ? (polling time & faults in grades?)

On one system, a device may be in an ideal location for a particular network provider and be able to maintain a solid connection. On a second system, the device may be in a notoriously bad area and suffer regular outages. The two systems should not be forced to use the same client or server side polling/checking intervals.

other nextwork can be supported by certian products, personally I prefer the sim bundled in with a product

Mr? Veritas God

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How so ipalarms?

What difference does it make it I pay for the sim or someone else does?

You would have control over the data plan and thus the polling interval. Right now, the client side polling interval is controlled by the manufacturer with the end result that there are too many poll failures and systems end up on log only. The polling rate should be adjustable within the IP device so that the installer can change it to suit the individual client. All GPRS connections were not created equal.

On the cost side, if you deal direct with the SIM provider, you would pay just a small amount to up your data plan, but generally with the GPRS manufacturers, they charge charge a fair old chunk. This is how they make their money and fair enough. I have no idea how much it costs for different plans from the UK manufacturers.

These are just my suggestions for improvement based on how we run our IP/GPRS solutions outside of the UK. Understand that this is for debating only, as at the end of the day, you guys have no choice anyway.

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Reporting has to be , or rather failed path has to be INSTANT .

Red care GSM is still the bizz for me.

Am I missing something here?

If I block the GSM with my jammer at the same time my dodgy mate cuts the phone line - are you telling me the ARC is notified instantly ?

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I always understood that the biggest issue with gprs is using it infrequently, ie at g2 and g3. But if using it all the time there isn't an issue.

Are you saying that if you slow down the polling you are less Lilly to have gprs failures, or do you leave the active poll times alone and just extend the 'poll lost' timer?

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I'll upload a table with it all on. Unless someone beats me to it as it's pool night.

50136 table 6 I think.

James....I just realised...you posted Table 6 right at the beginnnig of this discussion.....for those interested.

IP Alarms...with regards to being outside the UK, I think you should also include Europe to. The EN standards are very clear with regards to the reporting times of the various grades. It is our responsibility as ATS providers to determine the adequate level of polling to identify a service affecting failure within the guidelines. There is also a requirement (in dual path systems) to step up the polling frequency on the remaining operational path should one of them fail.

Therefore data and SIM management is very key to providing a reasonably priced service(with no suprises, as I mention above). So I stand by my statement that Installers (and indeed ARCs and Nationals) have not got the appetite or the resource to administer SIM contracts. Granted the more you poll, the greater the bandwidth useage and the more likely you are to uncover a failure. But we can't have it both ways, we either monitor the path for the tighter reporting times (which means faster polling) or decide that the risk dictates this is not necessary. It is this decision that is (normally) out of the installers hands and he then has to provide a signalling service that meets the requirement.

Jim Carter

WebWayOne Ltd

www.webwayone.co.uk

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I always understood that the biggest issue with gprs is using it infrequently, ie at g2 and g3. But if using it all the time there isn't an issue.

GPRS = IP over GSM. It does not matter how much it used, it is either available or it is not.

Are you saying that if you slow down the polling you are less Lilly to have gprs failures, or do you leave the active poll times alone and just extend the 'poll lost' timer?

I'm more a fan of "heartbeats", which are sent out from the client device, as opposed to "polls" which are handled by the server. Heartbeats "spread the load" if you like and do not put any undue pressure on the server.

So, my suggestion is to have the client devices send heartbeats at the maximum rate possible allowed by the GPRS plan. The key setting is at the server end, where each device should have its own "poll lost timer" as you refer to it. The "poll lost timer" should be adjustable on a client by client basis so that it can be "tuned" to the performance of the client network. I'm not sure if this is how you have things setup already, or if every device must have the same "poll lost timer" according to the grade of the system.

When IP/GPRS first appeared, we all got excited about how quickly we could be alerted if the connection was "attacked". Nobody really expected the networks to be so **** that we would end up with a situation like: "Oh ignore it - it's just another network failure"

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GPRS = IP over GSM. It does not matter how much it used, it is either available or it is not.

I'm more a fan of "heartbeats", which are sent out from the client device, as opposed to "polls" which are handled by the server. Heartbeats "spread the load" if you like and do not put any undue pressure on the server.

So, my suggestion is to have the client devices send heartbeats at the maximum rate possible allowed by the GPRS plan. The key setting is at the server end, where each device should have its own "poll lost timer" as you refer to it. The "poll lost timer" should be adjustable on a client by client basis so that it can be "tuned" to the performance of the client network. I'm not sure if this is how you have things setup already, or if every device must have the same "poll lost timer" according to the grade of the system.

When IP/GPRS first appeared, we all got excited about how quickly we could be alerted if the connection was "attacked". Nobody really expected the networks to be so **** that we would end up with a situation like: "Oh ignore it - it's just another network failure"

i dont think that available, ie in signal and registered means that data will actually be recieved.

I see this regulally with my own mobile where i have a gprs or hsdpa connection, i have signal and the phone is regestered. But all i see is the data out arrow going on the phone no data recieved. Then a few minutes later it springs into life.

To me the only way you can be 100% the gprs side is 'available' is to actually transmit something, handshake etc and ensure the packet was received.

if your just checking registration and signal then thats like checking there is 50v and dialtone on a pstn line. Should work but many reasons why it may not.

I can see your argument with spreading the load between various servers but i suppose that depends on how your system is setup. Does it all report to a central cluster which then reports to the arc, or does it report direct to the arc. Each have their merits and neither is wrong as such imo.

AFAIK polling is fixed dependant upon if its the primary or an additional backup path and what ATS level its at. It can be more often than the reg states but needs to detect & report failures within the mandatory timelines.

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Am I missing something here?

If I block the GSM with my jammer at the same time my dodgy mate cuts the phone line - are you telling me the ARC is notified instantly ?

Yes, the polling is stopped.

Had this issue with a certian top bod in BT when visiting the server centre.

I showed them how to cut into and bypass the polling.

But, average mong does not know this.

Your instance isnt correct.

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if using a gsm jammer and a pair of cutter then to 50136 as worse case for dual path devices

g2 - 24 hours

g3 - 5 hours

g4 - 3 minutes

Can be quicker than 3 mins and some are but i think 3 mins in fine. If you want instant then some units can achieve it

but in the above example shows that anything less than g4 signalling is very weak when both paths fail

very weak is a large understatement

but also its not just gsm jammers, attacking the panel, the aerial etc would all provide the same result

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Absoultley agree.

Signalling is not monitered enough.

And we charge people for this.........................

Time things were improved. For us and our clients.

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ox

a lot 'used' to charge but thought the lower grades were better and cheaper.

Only now some are realising this may have been a mistake.

if you think that G2 dualpath is a huge amount cheaper you can see why some did.

Glad we didnt but due to the large number of my competition that do i need to be more competitive on these installs. I cant (or the customer cant afford/wont pay/doesnt care (delete as applicable) to carry on with G4 signalling so i need a viable alternative. There is a new catagory that some are already meeting that gives close to G4 service levels for a more competitive amount.

Im exploring this currently

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This brings us to the point I am trying to make - everything depends on the availability of the network(s). For example, we have grade 2 products where you control how quickly you are notified of path failures, but there is one big drawback - the reliability of the IP & GPRS networks in the UK.

If the installer and ARC were to agree on 90 seconds "poll lost timer", then based on what I've heard about the quality of networks, you'd have nothing but problems. If you agreed on 5 minutes, then you may be OK with a good percentage of your systems and the ones that fail could have the "poll lost timer" increased. If you agreed on 15 minutes, then maybe you would be getting close to having a workable solution for all concerned.

Again, this is of no use to you guys as we are not active in the UK market, but if you could convince your favourite manufacturer to modify their solution to help you compete, then that would be good.

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i think we have asome stuff like that already lol (aaron you know what i mean)

my issue is if the poll is going missing at 90 or 180 second intervals then what if an intruder signal goes missing?

what sort of availability do you think this thing would have in the uk? ie gprs availability not product

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