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Hi there

just moving into a old office building (1830s stone building) and its being turned back into a house,

it has just had a brand new fire alarm fitted but the other day i had to drop a apollo detector to get a bit of plasterboard up and the panel didnt report a fault,

this is a conventional system btw,

i looked into this further and the system will report a fault if you remove a detector, but if you take out a sounder (base sounders in all the rooms) it has no problem, i have bell tested and they all work but it just seems to think everything is fine with no end of line,

then i ripped up the floor in the room above and the sounder cable goes into a steel box marked "FIRE ALARM SOUNDER" where it is jointed with the base sounder its over then the cable carrys on to the next sounder,

so each detector and sounder has 3 cables etc

is there any problems with this style of system, or should there be no joints

i give credit to whoever installed the system because they have really put the effort in and have made sure you cant see any fire cables apart from the ones in the basement and comms room, but i am concerned about all the joints

regs

alex

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Hi there

just moving into a old office building (1830s stone building) and its being turned back into a house,

it has just had a brand new fire alarm fitted but the other day i had to drop a apollo detector to get a bit of plasterboard up and the panel didnt report a fault,

this is a conventional system btw,

i looked into this further and the system will report a fault if you remove a detector, but if you take out a sounder (base sounders in all the rooms) it has no problem, i have bell tested and they all work but it just seems to think everything is fine with no end of line,

then i ripped up the floor in the room above and the sounder cable goes into a steel box marked "FIRE ALARM SOUNDER" where it is jointed with the base sounder its over then the cable carrys on to the next sounder,

so each detector and sounder has 3 cables etc

is there any problems with this style of system, or should there be no joints

i give credit to whoever installed the system because they have really put the effort in and have made sure you cant see any fire cables apart from the ones in the basement and comms room, but i am concerned about all the joints

regs

alex

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Sounds a right mess if you ask me and that it's been installed by someone who can do a neat electrical install,"does fire alarms" and will wire in your cooker while they're there. :angry2:

The panel must report a fault if (i) a detector is removed,(ii) a sounder base is removed,(iii) there is an open circuit etc. etc.etc...

Edited by MatonTE1

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Ask to see the certificates of design, installation, commissioning .... the zone diagrams ... the log book.


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PM me for access to the SSAIB members discussion area.

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Sounds a right mess if you ask me and that it's been installed by someone who can do a neat electrical install,"does fire alarms" and will wire in your cooker while they're there. :angry2:

The panel must report a fault if (i) a detector is removed,(ii) a sounder base is removed,(iii) there is an open circuit etc. etc.etc...

In fact,if they wanted sounder bases why didn't they use the standard issue "fire alarm in a box" two wire system (we know who I mean) or an Apollo/Fulleon based solution?

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sounds to me like they have spurred of the detectors, you need to spend time on testing the cables and work out what goes where....


logo_head_75.jpg

Lee Sutton

E-Mail: leesutton@centurianfire.co.uk

Website: www.centurianfire.co.uk

Phone: 0845 094 9870

CENTURIAN FIRE & SECURITY (part of centurian group limited)

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All the detectors are wired in correctly, but the sounders are spured off one wire with a end of line in the last sounder (which is in a conventional sounder in the attic)

no log book and no certificates and i have no idea who makes the panel,

regs alex

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All the detectors are wired in correctly, but the sounders are spured off one wire with a end of line in the last sounder (which is in a conventional sounder in the attic)

no log book and no certificates and i have no idea who makes the panel,

regs alex

Sounds to me like the sounders need re-wiring in 4 core so you can continue the loop

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All the detectors are wired in correctly, but the sounders are spured off one wire with a end of line in the last sounder (which is in a conventional sounder in the attic)

no log book and no certificates and i have no idea who makes the panel,

regs alex

Could you maybe go over what the problem is again - originally you had said that you dropped the detector and no fault was shown,yet you then said if you take a detetcor out it indiates a fault - not being picky,confused thats all!

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usually when this happens someone has fitted a panel that takes either aeol units or resistors(cel precept,ctec etc) , were diode bases are fitted an aeol is required but if its an old system ,new panel non diode bases would be present.

I see this all to common on some sites were a sparks or so called engineer has commissioned it.

What make of panel is it?

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its a brand new system


I really can't be ar**** with it anymore.

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sorry to cause confusion, i meant if you drop the detector (being with the sounder too as they are base sounders) the detector circuit reports a fault but the sounder circuit does not report a fault,

as for the panel its got no brand on it what so ever, just a simple white box with 3 buttons on it, 2 zone

i have removed more flooring to reveal more cables etc, and upon finding that halfway down the building the fire cable changes into T+E i have decided to rip the whole system out and re-fit it myself,

i am a cctv installer so obviously this really isn't my field of expertise, and i will probs get a professional company out to quote me for a complete re-fit

what would you guys suggest for a residential (but very large) building we are talking 6 bedrooms plus basement, garages, etc

but we dont want separate sounders, base sounders would be best,

regs

alex

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sorry to cause confusion, i meant if you drop the detector (being with the sounder too as they are base sounders) the detector circuit reports a fault but the sounder circuit does not report a fault,

as for the panel its got no brand on it what so ever, just a simple white box with 3 buttons on it, 2 zone

Then the system doesn't comply with BS - simple. As others have indicated (pardon the pun) - any device dropped off the circuit must infrom the controls there is a fault. That includes sounders. Also the panel sounds like an electrical wholesaler special! Worth chasing the contractor for your money back at this point.

i have removed more flooring to reveal more cables etc, and upon finding that halfway down the building the fire cable changes into T+E i have decided to rip the whole system out and re-fit it myself,

That's an absolute no-no. Nowhere in a fire system is twin and earth cable acceptable any longer, and that's been the case for a long time now. Even the mains run on its (hopefully) dedicated circuit should be run in fire retardant cable - e.g. FP200, pyro, firetuff, etc.

i am a cctv installer so obviously this really isn't my field of expertise, and i will probs get a professional company out to quote me for a complete re-fit

what would you guys suggest for a residential (but very large) building we are talking 6 bedrooms plus basement, garages, etc

Nicest possible way - get someone in who whos what they are doing. Is there a requirement for a fire alarm system in this premises, or is it something the owners wanted, as a peace of mind thing?

Thing is, if you're going to have it, it needs to be done properly - there's no point having peace of mind if it is't going to work when it's needed. And if it is a required system - well, you're knackered as things stand. Should start with a qualified risk assessment really - and then design the grade of system accordingly, specify the kit, then install.

but we dont want separate sounders, base sounders would be best,

regs

alex

Nothing particularly wrong with that - and perfectly possible. Just make sure they indicate a fault condition at the panel when removed from circuit! (and that they're wired in the correct cable!!!!)....

Bill.


Bill

Accord Fire & Security Services Ltd.

www.accordfire.co.uk ~ TEL: 0845 474 5839

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sorry to cause confusion, i meant if you drop the detector (being with the sounder too as they are base sounders) the detector circuit reports a fault but the sounder circuit does not report a fault,

as for the panel its got no brand on it what so ever, just a simple white box with 3 buttons on it, 2 zone

i have removed more flooring to reveal more cables etc, and upon finding that halfway down the building the fire cable changes into T+E i have decided to rip the whole system out and re-fit it myself,

i am a cctv installer so obviously this really isn't my field of expertise, and i will probs get a professional company out to quote me for a complete re-fit

what would you guys suggest for a residential (but very large) building we are talking 6 bedrooms plus basement, garages, etc

but we dont want separate sounders, base sounders would be best,

regs

alex

You could go either way here (addressable or non-addressable) depending on how much you want to spend per device and panel, but both will give you sounders and detectors on the same pair.

I'd recommend allowing a zone per floor,one for the roofspace and one for any external buidings.

As for equipment (imo) I'd go for (non-addressable) Apollo Sav Wire gear with HAES control panel or Fulleon Squashni Micro 2 Wire sounder bases,Apollo heads/bases with a Firesense 2 Wire panel.

Just a thought but why are you thinking of installing a Part 1 system (ie - control panel,monitored zones etc.) and not interlinked mains detectors with battery back up?

Edited by MatonTE1

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Yup its a complete mess so its all coming out,

i am going to fit the new system i have decided, i am rather competent with electronics and the fire alarm is not a requirement simply a add on, but i will be following the book!

addressable would be preferred, but from what i have previously read it will be hard being able to get a panel that will run the heads

i would like to use apollo XP95 addressable heads, can anyone advise me on panels which will run that protocol, and what base sounders can i use?

regs

alex

+ the previous owner of the house wont give me the info of who installed the last system, i would think he did it him self because all of the rest of his "handywork" is cr$&

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Yup its a complete mess so its all coming out,

i am going to fit the new system i have decided, i am rather competent with electronics and the fire alarm is not a requirement simply a add on, but i will be following the book!

addressable would be preferred, but from what i have previously read it will be hard being able to get a panel that will run the heads

i would like to use apollo XP95 addressable heads, can anyone advise me on panels which will run that protocol, and what base sounders can i use?

regs

alex

+ the previous owner of the house wont give me the info of who installed the last system, i would think he did it him self because all of the rest of his "handywork" is cr$&

http://www.apollo-fire.co.uk/panelmanu.html - take your pick for a control panel.

Everyong has a favourite "box" that they use but most common would be Advanced,Morley,Kentec and C-TEC.Based on their conventional stuff I'd give HAES a look as well.

Bear in mind that you will (ideally) need to get the software and leads for any of these panels for putting your text strings in.

You will be using the sounder bases from whatever manufacturer of detection you decide on (Hochiki also have a very established history and are as good as Apollo).

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