Fault On Pir

[zaz]

Hi guys i wonder if any of you have come across this problem before i had a customer call out for a fault on a PIR it just went into alarm when he was at home one day. I checked the wire all fine i didnt change the PIR, Not one in the van so i just turned off the zone 3, four hours later get a phone call same thing happened again zone 2. Both PIR are on the same run of wire. any ideas please.

[magpye]

Hi guys i wonder if any of you have come across this problem before i had a customer call out for a fault on a PIR it just went into alarm when he was at home one day. I checked the wire all fine i didnt change the PIR, Not one in the van so i just turned off the zone 3, four hours later get a phone call same thing happened again zone 2. Both PIR are on the same run of wire. any ideas please.

Panel type?

[zaz]

Panel type?

DSC 5015

[Guest anguscanplay]

cable damage

[CompostCORNER]

I agree. Sounds like a cable fault.

I had a strange situation just a few weeks ago where according to the customer, a detector kept setting the alarm off shortly after the system became set. Before i started, I asked the customer to demonstrate what happens. It turned out that the customer was slightly incorrect with his description. The alarm never set in the first place due to a detector being active. Going to the detector itself, it was happily lighting up and going off, clicking faintly as it did. Of course, the LED is never an indication that the PIR relay is operating but cable testing was the next course of action. Sure enough, the alarm pair were closed, so too were the tamper pair. But all 4 cores were giving a closed reading between one another. When I told the customer the cable was the problem, something clicked in his head. The fault started around christmas. The cable was 'glued' into the top groove of the picture rail in his dining room. And he had stuck a load of pins into the picture rail to secure his christmas cards, which were long gone but the pins remained. Removing them cleared the cable fault. He declined having the cable replaced, instead, gambling on the still damaged cable performing correctly.

I notice in the first post, you didn't have a replacement detector for this customer. Whats wrong with swapping it for a known working detector from elsewhere in the property? At least the fault finding would have moved forward a step as if the fault moved with the detector, then hey presto, the detector would be the cause. If the fault stayed on this zone, then you would know it was a cable/panel fault. But the point being, one potential problem removed from the list of possible faults. Narrowing the possibilities. This type of fault only becomes a headache if it's an intermittent fault that is clear when the engineer visits. Otherwise, no reason why the cause couldn't be found first time if armed with just a multi-meter and using the swapping detector method I pointed out.

[black knight]

I notice in the first post, you didn't have a replacement detector for this customer. Whats wrong with swapping it for a known working detector from elsewhere in the property? At least the fault finding would have moved forward a step as if the fault moved with the detector, then hey presto, the detector would be the cause. If the fault stayed on this zone, then you would know it was a cable/panel fault. But the point being, one potential problem removed from the list of possible faults. Narrowing the possibilities. This type of fault only becomes a headache if it's an intermittent fault that is clear when the engineer visits. Otherwise, no reason why the cause couldn't be found first time if armed with just a multi-meter and using the swapping detector method I pointed out.

Agreed - to many time a detector is just replaced. It make finincial and engineering sense to follow c/c's method but as i well know some companies prefer you to just change the sensor rather then messing around.

p

[zaz]

Agreed - to many time a detector is just replaced. It make finincial and engineering sense to follow c/c's method but as i well know some companies prefer you to just change the sensor rather then messing around.

p

Thanks for the advice i think you are right , i have since changed the pir and the fault has accured again next step change the cable.

[black knight]

Thanks for the advice i think you are right , i have since changed the pir and the fault has accured again next step change the cable.

Not neccessarily, try different conductors/different zone on panel, ask customer if anything has changed recently in effected area (ie fax machine) try temp putting another sensor in series or maybe if f/a is happening on a regular basis, disc. sensor leaving conductors only (if customers agrees of course). You need to follow a true diagnostic path to ascertain cause ie if you move cables to another zone and it still f/a's whilst you have end disc. from detection and shorted then you have proved it is cable. Similarly if you put another sensor below offending one (pref on another pair of cables) and it still activates it may be enviromental (or power).

you get the jist - you need to have a plan. As previously suggested swopping for similar sensor on site is also a good plan. Maybe you will need to re-point sensor ie reposition it, or upgrade it to a dual or quad. Questions like how long has sensor being fitted/has this area caused problems before come to mind.

Sorry if i am harping on but i like to see a proper investigation not just lets do this and see if it cures it.

good luck

Paul

[Guest anguscanplay]

Sorry if i am harping on but i like to see a proper investigation not just lets do this and see if it cures it.

good luck

Paul

er wasnt it unset when it "went off..."then ? its either a tamper, short between poles or a dodgy resistor thats unless your charging PER call ?

[black knight]

getting confused in my old age (and c/c post made me think otherwise as well).

I am not familar with the panel type so don,t know if it EOL or if like 9800 etc it shares a common connection between two zones for tamper?

has the other zone f/a'ed since? and i presume it was a tamper?

Cable does seem the obvious one now but i would still go down the short cables out/try alternative zone route if circumstances permit

(Note to self : must read posts properly!!)

p

[arfur mo]

Hi guys i wonder if any of you have come across this problem before i had a customer call out for a fault on a PIR it just went into alarm when he was at home one day. I checked the wire all fine i didnt change the PIR, Not one in the van so i just turned off the zone 3, four hours later get a phone call same thing happened again zone 2. Both PIR are on the same run of wire. any ideas please.

i'd need to clear up was the system on in part set, or was this a 'daytime' tamper?

a tamper is more likely to be a lid contact on aj/b perhaps or as others say cable damage, carpet fitter or rodents main suspects.

if it was set might be the power rail problem or week battery, 'walking faults' where the zone alarmed changes can be due to this problem or possibly earths on the system.

if it's the supply thats at fault you have to bear in mind pirs have nominal voltage working levels, both high and low limits. say you have a duff supply and 4 "Maker X" pirs, each will work down ot a stated voltage level, after which they will d'rop out' at a slightly different voltage level to each other.

now lets say all will work down to 10.8 volts, if the battery discharges on mains off, the volts will drop gradually to a point below that level, so say now Z2 triggers being the most senitive due to component spread. you replace or disconnect it as you have done and a while latter Z4 plays up. now your scratching your head because the panel only shows the 1st to alarm perhaps - but was not 'on' long enough to show other zones would most likely also have tripped eventually.

the aboves not the only example, but in a format to best explain overall, and an often overlooked facet by the less experienced service engineers to look out for.

check the aux volts are at a 13.6 ish! turn off the mains, keep meter attached and observe the voltage how far it drops, should no get below 12 volts, ring the sirens for a minute or so to draw off the batteries see how low it drops.

check the voltage at the detector/s at this stage before restoring the mains, 10.8 i think is the 'official' minimum but i's be concerned at anyting below 11.10. check again after restoring the mains for over voltage, should be 13.00 - 13.65 ideally at the detector, but best below 13.9 as many detectors are rated at 14.2 max

hope it helps.

regs

alan

[Guest anguscanplay]

i'd need to clear up was the system on in part set, or was this a 'daytime' tamper?

a tamper is more likely to be a lid contact on aj/b perhaps or as others say cable damage, carpet fitter or rodents main suspects.

if it was set might be the power rail problem or week battery, 'walking faults' where the zone alarmed changes can be due to this problem or possibly earths on the system.

if it's the supply thats at fault you have to bear in mind pirs have nominal voltage working levels, both high and low limits. say you have a duff supply and 4 "Maker X" pirs, each will work down ot a stated voltage level, after which they will d'rop out' at a slightly different voltage level to each other.

now lets say all will work down to 10.8 volts, if the battery discharges on mains off, the volts will drop gradually to a point below that level, so say now Z2 triggers being the most senitive due to component spread. you replace or disconnect it as you have done and a while latter Z4 plays up. now your scratching your head because the panel only shows the 1st to alarm perhaps - but was not 'on' long enough to show other zones would most likely also have tripped eventually.

the aboves not the only example, but in a format to best explain overall, and an often overlooked facet by the less experienced service engineers to look out for.

check the aux volts are at a 13.6 ish! turn off the mains, keep meter attached and observe the voltage how far it drops, should no get below 12 volts, ring the sirens for a minute or so to draw off the batteries see how low it drops.

check the voltage at the detector/s at this stage before restoring the mains, 10.8 i think is the 'official' minimum but i's be concerned at anyting below 11.10. check again after restoring the mains for over voltage, should be 13.00 - 13.65 ideally at the detector, but best below 13.9 as many detectors are rated at 14.2 max

hope it helps.

regs

alan

or just look for any new carpets

[camerabloke]

bit of a bummer if he lives above a carpet shop

[Guest anguscanplay]

bit of a bummer if he lives above a carpet shop

LMFAO

[arfur mo]

or just look for any new carpets

your limited angus, your just so limited

regs

alan

[Guest anguscanplay]

your limited angus, your just so limited

regs

alan

wasted you mean LOL

though I think the O/P might have mentioned power fails in his original post always looking for the hard way you are

[arfur mo]

wasted you mean LOL

though I think the O/P might have mentioned power fails in his original post always looking for the hard way you are

not a panel i've seen,

many panels on a power up (after complete power down) will show the 1st zone it feels like showing as the 'alarm' fault.

engineers can be fooled by the 'its a computer so it must be right' syndome, bit like many blindly accept the bill is correct at the supermarket checkout because 'it was done by machine' - and get well screwed more often than not into the process.

anyway, hopefully others have taken on board the differing approaches and be a little wiser and better for it - or more likely a hell of a lot more confused

regs

alan.

[Guest anguscanplay]

not a panel i've seen,

many panels on a power up (after complete power down) will show the 1st zone it feels like showing as the 'alarm' fault.

engineers can be fooled by the 'its a computer so it must be right' syndome, bit like many blindly accept the bill is correct at the supermarket checkout because 'it was done by machine' - and get well screwed more often than not into the process.

anyway, hopefully others have taken on board the differing approaches and be a little wiser and better for it - or more likely a hell of a lot more confused

regs

alan.

ah I see - it was a different phase to the one the O/P`s customer was " at home to...." thats why he didnt notice the power cut then but your right about one thing - you do confuse the issue

[arfur mo]

ah I see - it was a different phase to the one the O/P`s customer was " at home to...." thats why he didnt notice the power cut then but your right about one thing - you do confuse the issue

i used 'power cut' used as a generic term, not to say the main house went out, i.e duff fuse/holder, dodgy joint in spur od mains block etc.

only one confused is you - but thats just par for the course. mind you, ideal situation to try out a brand new neon screwdriver

while we are on that subject, i walked into Senate Electrical today to buy some trunking, noticed they had to have had 50 or so neon drivers on display, and 3 different models to chose from + the hot finger version - and this is a profesional trade electricians wholesalers, so what say you?

regs

alan

[Alarm Co]

Hi guys i wonder if any of you have come across this problem before i had a customer call out for a fault on a PIR it just went into alarm when he was at home one day. I checked the wire all fine i didnt change the PIR, Not one in the van so i just turned off the zone 3, four hours later get a phone call same thing happened again zone 2. Both PIR are on the same run of wire. any ideas please.

checkd zones terminals on panel for induced ac voltage

[Guest anguscanplay]

while we are on that subject, i walked into Senate Electrical today to buy some trunking, noticed they had to have had 50 or so neon drivers on display, and 3 different models to chose from + the hot finger version - and this is a profesional trade electricians wholesalers, so what say you?

regs

alan

they keep em to fob the diy`ers off with - one assumes you bought a couple then?

[zaz]

checkd zones terminals on panel for induced ac voltage

Just a Quick update went back to replace wire yesterday started to lift the carpet on stairs customer goes into one ( thats a new carpet i dont want you lifting that up) explained to him that was most likely when wire got damaged.Took alot of muttering under the breath abuse for 15 mins. Installed two wireless pir and receiver for nothing, guess what still muttering under his breath. Thanks to everyone who helped with there ideas.

[Guest anguscanplay]

Just a Quick update went back to replace wire yesterday started to lift the carpet on stairs customer goes into one ( thats a new carpet i dont want you lifting that up) explained to him that was most likely when wire got damaged.Took alot of muttering under the breath abuse for 15 mins. Installed two wireless pir and receiver for nothing, guess what still muttering under his breath. Thanks to everyone who helped with there ideas.

thank you very muchly

buy why,why,why and why "for nothing....?" I dont get that bit