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Using An Indoor Visonic Discovery Pir Externally


vivtal

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Dear All,

I am a new member and after searching on this forum, I could not find relevant info. hence this post.

I have a DSC (Canadian) security system (Power632 Six Zone, wired and wireless) and as an additional security cum home-automation system, I am planning to use an OMROM Zen 20 point PLC (12 i/ps and 6 relay o/ps).

I have Visonic Discovery PIRs which I wish to use with the above PLC.

Now the question is whether I can use these PIRs for outdoor? Say, by using a weatherproof enclosure/ protected from direct sunlight etc. (The front of course will be open :).

Has anyone used a similar indoor type PIR externally in a suitable enclosure?

I also have a PIR based external halogen flood-light and the only difference (at least visually) I see is that it has weather-proof enclosure. Am I correct?

Regards,

Viv

PS: To summarize, are there any other differences between an external PIR and an indoor PIR other than a weather-proof enclosure?

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Dear All,

I am a new member and after searching on this forum, I could not find relevant info. hence this post.

I have a DSC (Canadian) security system (Power632 Six Zone, wired and wireless) and as an additional security cum home-automation system, I am planning to use an OMROM Zen 20 point PLC (12 i/ps and 6 relay o/ps).

I have Visonic Discovery PIRs which I wish to use with the above PLC.

Now the question is whether I can use these PIRs for outdoor? Say, by using a weatherproof enclosure/ protected from direct sunlight etc. (The front of course will be open :).

Has anyone used a similar indoor type PIR externally in a suitable enclosure?

I also have a PIR based external halogen flood-light and the only difference (at least visually) I see is that it has weather-proof enclosure. Am I correct?

Regards,

Viv

PS: To summarize, are there any other differences between an external PIR and an indoor PIR other than a weather-proof enclosure?

Normal PIR's (i.e. a Discovery) will be more sensitive to extremes of temperature. It may be better to try a quad element (there is a Visonic quad I believe).

That said, there are people on this forum that are better qualified to answer than I.

Matt Gilmartin, Sales Director

T: +44(01205) 821111 | F: +44(01205) 820316

info@smoke-screen.co.uk | www.smoke-screen.co.uk

Head office:

1-2 North End, Swineshead, Boston, Lincs PE20 3LR

Registered in the UK no. 2728491

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Normal PIR's (i.e. a Discovery) will be more sensitive to extremes of temperature. It may be better to try a quad element (there is a Visonic quad I believe).

That said, there are people on this forum that are better qualified to answer than I.

The place where I stay (Bangalore India) does not (I think) have variations in temp. especially in the night. Also the reason I want to use a PLC so that I have a kind of complete (??) programmatic control over what I could do after the sensor/s detection etc. Also, a couple (or many) of PIRs located differently but scanning same area may eliminate the problem of false alarms. Any suggestions?

Incidently I plan to use only internal buzzer so that it does not wake up neighbours.

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the principle is the same, movement of heat source detection, as a rule i would be very reluctant to use a detector designed primarily for internal use externally especially for security, the design of the Fresnel lens is so it is best suited to internal situations, the pyro sensor is also selected and designed on the same lines.

external detectors need many considerations to be taken into account for reliability of operation, like animals, insect penitration, water ingress (rain or mist), air flow and swaying bushes or tree's even washing on a line within it's range.

in your country there are also the extremes of heat and humidity in which this detector may not function properly at certain times, causing false alarms or failing all together.

so your best advised to buy a detector specifically designed for the job in hand of which there are many options, and not bodge up an unsuitable one.

you want to use a PLC to control everything, modern alarm panels even cheap ones can do all you want very easily and effectively, so why go and re-invent the wheel? you could use GJD Opal external detection, excellent kit can control lights too, a bit more expensive (but also has the buzzer already built in :) )

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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the principle is the same, movement of heat source detection, as a rule i would be very reluctant to use a detector designed primarily for internal use externally especially for security, the design of the Fresnel lens is so it is best suited to internal situations, the pyro sensor is also selected and designed on the same lines.

external detectors need many considerations to be taken into account for reliability of operation, like animals, insect penitration, water ingress (rain or mist), air flow and swaying bushes or tree's even washing on a line within it's range.

in your country there are also the extremes of heat and humidity in which this detector may not function properly at certain times, causing false alarms or failing all together.

so your best advised to buy a detector specifically designed for the job in hand of which there are many options, and not bodge up an unsuitable one.

you want to use a PLC to control everything, modern alarm panels even cheap ones can do all you want very easily and effectively, so why go and re-invent the wheel? you could use GJD Opal external detection, excellent kit can control lights too, a bit more expensive (but also has the buzzer already built in :) )

regs

alan

Agreed, but I have to consider the availability of the material also. Home security is a new market in India and the brands that are easily available in UK may not available here. BTW, the whole thing started because, I have not seen any dedicated external PIRs so far and since I have the indoor PIRs already, just wanted to check whether they can used externally.

Also, as I said earlier, this PLC for me would be an additional security system (I already have the DSC panel, with PIR, Mag reed switches etc), which would also act as a home-automation system. I am not sure whether a dedicated security panel can switch on a light or act as light dimmer. ( I have gone thro' the manual of DSC Power series but still not sure whether lights can be switched on/ or dimmed?)

Also my previous experience with PLCs is that they are quite robust.

Also do you think, using multiple PIRs (and good programming) would eliminate false alarms? And finally, do you think they may fail because of extremes of temparature changes. (BTW, the specs say, the said PIR has safe operating range -10 to +50 degrees centigrade)

Rgds,

Viv

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Agreed, but I have to consider the availability of the material also. Home security is a new market in India and the brands that are easily available in UK may not available here. BTW, the whole thing started because, I have not seen any dedicated external PIRs so far and since I have the indoor PIRs already, just wanted to check whether they can used externally.

Also, as I said earlier, this PLC for me would be an additional security system (I already have the DSC panel, with PIR, Mag reed switches etc), which would also act as a home-automation system. I am not sure whether a dedicated security panel can switch on a light or act as light dimmer. ( I have gone thro' the manual of DSC Power series but still not sure whether lights can be switched on/ or dimmed?)

Also my previous experience with PLCs is that they are quite robust.

Also do you think, using multiple PIRs (and good programming) would eliminate false alarms? And finally, do you think they may fail because of extremes of temparature changes. (BTW, the specs say, the said PIR has safe operating range -10 to +50 degrees centigrade)

Rgds,

Viv

Hi Viv,

not tried working with PIRs in very hot climates, you would be better going for 'dual tec' unit, these have PIR and Micro wave detectors cross each other so as to eliminate activations from problem sources (with differ for each technology).

some domestic pir's cn be slow t detect if both the background and the subject are at warm temperatures, often a person who has been in a house for some time may not trip a pir immediately when passing by, but then a person walks in who has just come from say the garden, it works straight away.

as your fairly restricted for kit and so choice where you live, i would suggest perhaps source from Ebay if you have access, obviously you need to find vendors happy to post to India, we have many of you nationals over here running businesses, so a bit of research to be done (or invite one of us lot over for a free holiday in your beautiful country :) ).

we have more sophisticated alarm systems available which can be interfaced with to control lights even operate access control, but you seem to be going for a more sophisticated home automation plan.

to be quite frank (but i hope not condescending) we get many such enquirers on this forum, it usually leads to a lot of wasted time, money and many many tears. my very best advise is to keep it really simple in order to keep it really effective.

this forum has 7000+ members yet with all that undoubted excellent ability available i'd be surprised if even 5 of them have full home automation - sort of tells it's own story don't you think?

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Dear All,

I am a new member and after searching on this forum, I could not find relevant info. hence this post.

I have a DSC (Canadian) security system (Power632 Six Zone, wired and wireless) and as an additional security cum home-automation system, I am planning to use an OMROM Zen 20 point PLC (12 i/ps and 6 relay o/ps).

I have Visonic Discovery PIRs which I wish to use with the above PLC.

Now the question is whether I can use these PIRs for outdoor? Say, by using a weatherproof enclosure/ protected from direct sunlight etc. (The front of course will be open :).

Has anyone used a similar indoor type PIR externally in a suitable enclosure?

I also have a PIR based external halogen flood-light and the only difference (at least visually) I see is that it has weather-proof enclosure. Am I correct?

Regards,

Viv

PS: To summarize, are there any other differences between an external PIR and an indoor PIR other than a weather-proof enclosure?

LOL

It will never work..

If you want external protection buy redwall Etc not internal pirs boxed up and fitted outside. LOL

we get calls to so much cack that has been fitted wrong by diy. Do it once do it right.

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Hi Viv,

not tried working with PIRs in very hot climates, you would be better going for 'dual tec' unit, these have PIR and Micro wave detectors cross each other so as to eliminate activations from problem sources (with differ for each technology).

some domestic pir's cn be slow t detect if both the background and the subject are at warm temperatures, often a person who has been in a house for some time may not trip a pir immediately when passing by, but then a person walks in who has just come from say the garden, it works straight away.

as your fairly restricted for kit and so choice where you live, i would suggest perhaps source from Ebay if you have access, obviously you need to find vendors happy to post to India, we have many of you nationals over here running businesses, so a bit of research to be done (or invite one of us lot over for a free holiday in your beautiful country :) ).

we have more sophisticated alarm systems available which can be interfaced with to control lights even operate access control, but you seem to be going for a more sophisticated home automation plan.

to be quite frank (but i hope not condescending) we get many such enquirers on this forum, it usually leads to a lot of wasted time, money and many many tears. my very best advise is to keep it really simple in order to keep it really effective.

this forum has 7000+ members yet with all that undoubted excellent ability available i'd be surprised if even 5 of them have full home automation - sort of tells it's own story don't you think?

regs

alan

Hi Alan and Everybody,

Thank you very much, I guess, I will have to wait till I get my hands on the external PIRs as advised.

I also have Dual Tec PIR (Intellisense) and it's used indoors (with my DSC), so I guess if I cannot get the external PIRs then probably I have to ask the Alarm company to disconnect this (dual tec) and use the visonic indoors.

The reason I was planning to use a PLC because basically I am an embedded systems designer and little conversant with PLCs in general. Acc. to me (and I may stand corrected :) most of the security panels/home automation are (probably) little variations on the basic PLC concept/theme. Also since PLC's were there earlier, their construction is quite robust even for an entry level PLC, whereas I am not sure whether a low to mid-end security system can boast that level of robustness. (This is just my opinion and I do not have any data to support it)

Finally, the cost. A typical 20 point PLC retails about 150 GBP in India whereas I paid almost double for the DSC (Power632, which I think is the entry-level). Funnily enough, the Optex external PIR LX-402/802 retails at about 70 GBP per piece in India. whereas I picked the visonic/ Dual Tec Intellisense PIR for 8 GBP (per piece) about 1- 1/2 years ago in ebay.uk (when I was visiting at that time)

Anyway, thanks again, and I will keep you posted if I go-ahead and try atleast once. I now have about 9 of these PIRs and won't mind much sacrificing one just to satisfy my curiosity :) And as I have said earlier, I just require detection in the night whereas in the day I would be programming the PLC to ignore.

Regards,

Viv

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I forgot to mention how I plan to use the PIR externally.

In my small garden which is about 12 feet by 15 feet wide and recessed in the building (C shaped), I have a mild-steel pergola at a height of 16 feet. On top of this pergola, I have a 6mm double wall and sloped polycarbonate sheet covering the entire garden. I plan to put the PIR facing downwards in a big funnel like aluminium container.

Hence I think there's no chance of water and direct sunlight falling on the PIR. Additionally, due to double walled (with airgap)polycarbonate sheet, the PIR itself won't get hot because of sun. BTW, I already have a temp. sensor fixed there as part of my home auto which has so far shown temp. from 15 degrees to 23 degrees centigrade.

However, the PIR when installed downwards may have limited visibility but I can always have another one so that both of them cover the entire 12 X 15 area.

Any suggestions?

Rgds,

Viv

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hi,

detectors are designed to look down when placed virtical on a wall, from a height of about 6 - 8 feet, if you point it down it will have less range. if using a dual tec the microwave will penetrate the plastic so during heavy rain will see water moving, all you need then is a decent draft and hey presto alarm condition.

alarm panels are designed to work 24/7 x 365, also have rechargeable battery back up built in, plc are designed to switch far higher currents whic help clean contacts used by them, but pass micro-amps as used in modern a;arm panels, then you will likely suffer contact degradation over a period of time in your PLC.

you have to write you PLC program from scratch, alarm panels have all that ready and waiting complete with a log of events to aid tracing faults, you just need to select the options needed, like with your external detector you might want double knock or a longer delay before alarm signal, pir in hall on access route backk door on chime and so on.

your time and your money, by all means use a PLC designed to run machinery, but i recommend a proper alarm panel and proper detection as that is proper design concepts, anything else is experimental and likely to be a failure to at least some degree.

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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hi,

detectors are designed to look down when placed virtical on a wall, from a height of about 6 - 8 feet, if you point it down it will have less range. if using a dual tec the microwave will penetrate the plastic so during heavy rain will see water moving, all you need then is a decent draft and hey presto alarm condition.

alarm panels are designed to work 24/7 x 365, also have rechargeable battery back up built in, plc are designed to switch far higher currents whic help clean contacts used by them, but pass micro-amps as used in modern a;arm panels, then you will likely suffer contact degradation over a period of time in your PLC.

you have to write you PLC program from scratch, alarm panels have all that ready and waiting complete with a log of events to aid tracing faults, you just need to select the options needed, like with your external detector you might want double knock or a longer delay before alarm signal, pir in hall on access route backk door on chime and so on.

your time and your money, by all means use a PLC designed to run machinery, but i recommend a proper alarm panel and proper detection as that is proper design concepts, anything else is experimental and likely to be a failure to at least some degree.

regs

alan

Hi,

Thanks Alan, I think I will go with your advice. Prior to the DSC panel, I had a 4 zone wired Wickes security panel, which I will again use after sourcing Redwall etc. external PIRs (I guess that would take some time to source :))

Let the PLC be used for home-auto and nothing else. Mitsubishi alpha controllers are also specifically designed with home-auto in mind in addition to factory auto.

Rgds,

Viv

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