18 replies to this topic

[Service Engineer]

Have a look here: www.iviewcameras.co.uk

All fairy good camera`s and suitable for your intended use.

You will need at least a time & date generator if this is gonna be used as evidence.

Also read the data protection act ( http://www.thesecuri...co.uk/dpa.shtml ) and be sure you abide by the rules etc, otherwise your evidence wont mean anything.

[Rich]

For a £200 you will be hard pushed to get a Time lapse VCR.

You could try your local security company and see if they would rent you the equipment you wanted, id say about £200 for a month or 2 tops.

Alternatively check out ebay for 2nd hand stuff, Time lapse vcr's usually have a time and date generator built in.

To illuminate the area you will need either a infra red flood light or spot, there are some LED versions out nowdays but it all depends on the distance from the area and width. For the camera, stick to monochrome for night time and the resolution will generally be higher than colour.

If you find cameras that say around 500 TVL they are hi res, but a low end Time lapse vcr will only give you about 350 tvl on a 3hour recording, so dont try and get a hi-res camera and connect it to a low res vcr.

Alternatively you could get a PCI card for a pc and use that as a video recorder, and just get yourself a camera.

[Rich]

dont even bother with the cameras you get from B&Q etc, I fitted one of them today for a disabled guy, He brought the camera himself, and I have never seen anything so bad. £70 he paid for the colour camera. and only 30% of the screen ( a bit in the middle) is in focus.

[Rich]

DRW, on Mar 3 2005, 07:53 PM, said:

Thanks for such quick advice, chaps. I'm now going to read and digest the data protection stuff.

In the meantime, a couple more questions: do infra red cameras give any visible signs that they're working? (I want to be completely covert). The other thing is, will one of these, plus a date and time generator, work on a standard VCR using a long-play tape? Just a thought, so please excuse my ignorance.

Don't think I can do the PC route 'cos I'm a Mac user...

The led type IR lamps give of an ever so slight glow, but you would be hard pushed to notice it, a standard vcr will be ok as long as you use the composite video in, either video in phono or scart.

[PeterR]

Rich, on Mar 3 2005, 08:27 PM, said:

The led type IR lamps give of an ever so slight glow, but you would be hard pushed to notice it, a standard vcr will be ok as long as you use the composite video in, either video in phono or scart.

Try Time Lapse Video for the video, probably the cheapest branded time lapse around, for the IR camera if you can pay a little extra and go for something with a varifocal lens, as this will let you adjust the width of view you get and allow you to decide the perfect balance between viewing angle and detail.

[Doktor Jon]

DRW,

Just a quick post as I'm a bit stretched for time at the moment.

Don't worry about the Data Protection Act, it doesn't apply to domestic use of CCTV.

Yes, you should look to having the correct Time and Date information on whatever recordings you produce as evidence, and apart from the fact that I'm a fellow Mac user, I would personally suggest you avoid recording on a computer with this type of problem.

You could certainly consider hiring equipment as Peter J suggested, or if you are intent on buying, go for the best quality / sensitivity monochrome camera you can afford (ideally 560 - 580 lines fitted with Electronic Iris, not 600 as they are generally far less Infra red sensitive) and a reputable manual iris lens as you are aiming to produce the best quality possible at night.

Lens Focal length will depend on distance to target, but I've recently had a friend with a similar 'issue' and her vehicle was left parked within thirty feet of an o.k. ish street light, with very good results - mind you that was recorded onto S-VHS with a multiplexer.

If you need more detailed advice on this, check out a likely place to park your vehicle, work out the distance from a suitable window to the vehicle itself, and then post back with the details.

Be aware though that if the vehicle is 'keyed' on the blind side, even if you can identify the person from the recording, if the act of sabotage is not clearly visible it's unlikely that the police will be able to act.

[Service Engineer]

Quote

Don't worry about the Data Protection Act, it doesn't apply to domestic use of CCTV

??????? Are you for real.

As soon as you connect a camera to any recorder, then the Data protection act applies unless you are covering no more than your own premises. As soon as you start peering over your own premises perimeter you need to consider the DPA.

[Rich]

securityconsultant, on Mar 4 2005, 09:38 AM, said:

Contact your local crime prevention officer or you might just find any evidence you get can't be used due to the good old DPA.

You cant go out of your way to spy on next door all you can saftly do is watch your own property but if your cars on a public road then full dpa is needed

He wants to install a covert system which is to be temporary, to monitor his own car.

How many coverts have you guys installed and insisted on fitting signs up warning people?
Data protection is the protection of Data, It is more focused on what happens to the recordings.
A judgment is to be made on the images captured, If the camera is set so that the person being recorder is 80% to 120% then that would be classed as specific information on an idividual, therefore I believe the DPA would apply. As its a temporary covert system then basically you would document the uses, and make sure the tapes are only accessable by the operator, not passed to anyonme else apart from the police.


To ensure the images are captured in a manner prescribed the location of cameras must be carefully considered.
1. The equipment should be used to only monitor the intended spaces.
2. Owners and residents of domestic premises must be consulted if domestic premises border the intended area to be viewed. (Not mandatory but good practice)
3. Those operating the system must be aware of its purpose and only use it for its specified purpose.
4. The cameras must be restricted where practicable so that those operating the system cannot overlook spaces that are not intended to be viewed.
5. Signs, which are clearly visible and legible, should be displayed so that the public are aware they are entering an area covered by CCTV.
6. Specific information should be included on the sign
o Identity of who is responsible for the scheme
o The purpose of the scheme
o Details of who to contact regarding the scheme

7. If signs are not appropriate and monitoring is for a specific CRIMINAL activity:
o Fully document the following steps
o Identify the specific criminal activity
o Identify there is a need to use surveillance to obtain evidence of that activity and whether the use of signs would prejudice success in obtaining such evidence
o To ensure it is not carried out for longer than necessary, assess how long covert monitoring should take place

[Rich]

I will eventually be creating a full breakdown of gathered information regarding CCTV and the DPA, there are many version about and there seems to be alot of confusion regarding this.




Additional Guidance.
http://www.informati.....nal guide.pdf

DPA CCTV Code of practice.
http://www.informati...ds/cctvcop1.pdf

CCTV Informations interpretation
http://www.cctv-info...ot/dpacctv.html

[Rich]

I contacted Robyn Sones of www.cctv-information.co.uk about this and if you have masked your neighbours area from view then unless you were tracking an individual rather than monitoring a fixed area or object you are most likely exempt from the Data Protection Act, However he did comment that this is still a grey area, As you can probably tell from the mixed responses.

A DPA - Self assessment document is available for end users from the cctv-information site and for installers they have available a CD Rom with full information on how to comply with the Data Protection Act complete with animation's and video clips.

More importantly, it also contains all of the templates, forms and information needed to create your own Data Protection Policy Document be fully compliant with The Act. Contact Robyn via his site if you are interested.

Hope that is of some help.

[Doktor Jon]

Quote

(Service Engineer Posted Mar 3 2005, 11:40 PM)
Are you for real.
As soon as you connect a camera to any recorder, then the Data protection act applies unless you are covering no more than your own premises. As soon as you start peering over your own premises perimeter you need to consider the DPA.

Er, yes I am for real .... at least I was the last time I looked.

Now there's two things I could suggest which might help clarify the position regarding the Data Protection Act.

Firstly have a look at this news article http://www.doktorjon...wsstories5.html

the contents of which are based on a detailed written interview which I conducted with the Office of the Information Commissioner last year.

Secondly, if you don't believe me, why not pick up the phone and request clarification from the I.C. directly. They are very nice people, and would you believe it, they also know what they're talking about when it comes to Data Protection Principles and CCTV.

As it stands, no DPA compliant signage is required for domestic use, no data subjects right of access to recorded material, and perhaps more worryingly, absolutely no way of stopping nosy neighbours from watching your every move using CCTV, unless you want to take out a private prosecution for harrassment; The DPA has absolutely no control over the Home use of CCTV.

So there you have it - no grey areas, no confusion, the law is the law, and unless a very senior member of staff at the IC office has been telling me porky pies, that's the state of play at the moment. If anyone knows better than the Office of the Information Commissioner, let me know and I'll post it up on my website.

[amateurandy]

Interesting subject; I'm very familiar with the DPA and guidance, but regarding computers, not CCTV. It didn't take long to find this comment on the Information Commisionners web site:

"It is likely that the use of cameras by individuals to protect their own property is excluded from the provisions of the Act under the exemption at Section 36 of the Act."

Note that this doesn't define property, but I guess it would include your car parked on the road by your house.
But, you maybe couldn't use it as evidence for damage against your neighbours car.

[secure4]

OK, if your filimg this from a distance you will get nothing that could be used as evidence unless you can actually see the car unscratched before and scratched after the person has passed the car and also see the person clearly. All they would have to say is that they were walking past.

If its parked on the public highway then you wouldnt have a leeg to stand on, as they obviously have a reason to do this. If it was parked on your driveway, it would be a different matter.


The only way you would be able to prove that the car was damage by x person is to install a camera in the car or wing mirror looking along the car, you could then see clearly what was going on and who was causing the damage. You could either save this information to a portable DVR, or transmit it back to a recording source in your house, personally i would spend the money and get a portable DVR.

I was going to have a rant about the other info given on here for this situation but im not going to bother. Oh, and in another case siilar to this once the guy was caught and admitted it he had to cough up £20,000 in damages!

Edited by secure4, 21 March 2005 - 01:10 PM.