Maria Gill Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) I would appreciate it greatly if someone could advise me about an issue with the above system. We purchased this system 21 months ago which has worked fine up until neighbouring builders disturbed an underground electricity cable. We were left without electricity for approximately 30 hours until National Grid dug up our garden to resolve the issue. The alarm did not kick back in despite power being restored and the installer said it was nothing to do with the electricity cable being cut but that the failure was down to the system not having been serviced so the sensor batteries had gone flat. Call me cynical but that is a massive coincidence. Anyway, apparently the main battery was fine so he said he only had to replace the sensor batteries (5 small Panasonic lithium batteries for which he charged £50, plus call out (total £104 which we want off the builders)). I was told over the phone that we would need two batteries at £25 each. I understood that the wireless batteries lasted two to three years. Is this correct? Also, why didn't the alarm start working again when electricity was restored? The engineer is adamant that it is our fault for not having a yearly service but I just see this a ruse to get more money out of us. Again, call me cynical! We have never had issues with previous (different) alarm systems and had one for 10 and another for 15 years with no problems. We have no intention of paying £104 a year to those guys to replace batteries when we paid £450 for the system. Was as it the power failure (cut cables) that caused this or was it the wireless batteries (coincidentally) running out at the exact same time that caused the issue with the system? We just don't understand why the system did not kick back in when power was restored. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks Edited October 14, 2017 by Maria Gill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Being a house basher it sounds about right Regardless of power outage I would do the same change batteries in sensor and any others that need it £450 is cheap for the system And £104 for the repair is a very good price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 your £50 visit was cheap, £10 each for a sensor battery was dear We'd be more than £104 & if non contract we'd might not come at all By contrast A daytime visit for my house telephone would be £120+vat if my equipment is not at fault The business telephone line went off some months ago £450+vat for an engineer to attend on Saturday morning I declined, they fixed some days latter at the exchange (there a bunch of clowns) I pay call costs & line rental.... you've provided no income for your alarm co. since the install I'd change lithium radio alarm battery's every 2 yrs & the lead acid battery every 5yrs unless they fail earlier In your case I'd **assume** the end station, radio expander & keypad ect... stopped working after 10hrs or so. when powered back up it recharged its battery but shows L! for every radio device or something ? The batterys may not need replacing at this point but I'd expect who however replace them has measured them & found there down on volts? Any fault with your CPX will appear in the log, view it ? Quote Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 It's possible for the panel not to kick back in , and also it doesn't really matter to be honest almost everyone who doesn't service there system yearly has this issue of similar types there's nothing an engineer could do to make your alarm not come back on unless for example there's an engineer's reset required Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Gill Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 1 hour ago, al-yeti said: Being a house basher it sounds about right Regardless of power outage I would do the same change batteries in sensor and any others that need it £450 is cheap for the system And £104 for the repair is a very good price Thank you for your reply. They upgraded the old (different) system when we bought it so they didn't provide the main battery hence the cost. I personally don't think it was a good price as it takes them less than 5 minutes to get to our house and it took less than 10 minutes to replace the batteries. That's all they did. It wasn't a repair. I don't understand how the 30 hour power outage could possibly have had no bearing on the system failing. I can understand the main battery running out because 30 hours is such a long time but when it recharged after having been reconnected to the electricity supply why didn't the system work? We were told the sensor batteries would last 2 to 3 years not 21 months. It's too much of a coincidence that the sensor batteries failed at the exact same time that the underground electricity cable was cut by the builders. There had been no issues whatsoever before that. I genuinely believe there is more to it but I don't know the answer. Having said that it concerns me that the sensor batteries can stop the whole system from working. That can't be right. What if they failed whilst on holiday? 1 hour ago, al-yeti said: Being a house basher it sounds about right Regardless of power outage I would do the same change batteries in sensor and any others that need it £450 is cheap for the system And £104 for the repair is a very good price Just now, Maria Gill said: Thank you for your reply. They upgraded the old (different) system when we bought it so they didn't provide the main battery hence the cost. I personally don't think it was a good price as it takes them less than 5 minutes to get to our house and it took less than 10 minutes to replace the batteries. That's all they did. It wasn't a repair. I don't understand how the 30 hour power outage could possibly have had no bearing on the system failing. I can understand the main battery running out because 30 hours is such a long time but when it recharged after having been reconnected to the electricity supply why didn't the system work? We were told the sensor batteries would last 2 to 3 years not 21 months. It's too much of a coincidence that the sensor batteries failed at the exact same time that the underground electricity cable was cut by the builders. There had been no issues whatsoever before that. I genuinely believe there is more to it but I don't know the answer. Having said that it concerns me that the sensor batteries can stop the whole system from working. That can't be right. What if they failed whilst on holiday? T 1 hour ago, al-yeti said: Being a house basher it sounds about right Regardless of power outage I would do the same change batteries in sensor and any others that need it £450 is cheap for the system And £104 for the repair is a very good price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Gill Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 Thank you all for your replies however I'm still none the wiser as to why the main battery didn't kick back in to make the alarm work once electricity was restored. There wasn't a fault with the alarm per se and there wasn't a repair. The underground cable was cut which resulted in the power outage. There is no way that that wasn't related to the alarm problems we experienced. Call me dumb but I just don't understand why it didn't come back on or why sensor batteries that were less than 2 years old suddenly ran out at the exact moment in time that the outside cable was cut. It' has to be all connected. I see no logic in any of it. I appreciate you all taking the time to comment though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 doesnt make sense for them not to provide a new system battery if replacing main controls however doesnt change the fact most would change all the sensor batteries and the system battery at this stage and £104 cheap fix i seen some come back and say sorry panel or wireless repeater has been spiked i have to put a new one in cost total now £450 again , so he did well on that charge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Gill Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 18 minutes ago, al-yeti said: doesnt make sense for them not to provide a new system battery if replacing main controls however doesnt change the fact most would change all the sensor batteries and the system battery at this stage and £104 cheap fix i seen some come back and say sorry panel or wireless repeater has been spiked i have to put a new one in cost total now £450 again , so he did well on that charge Thank you for your reply however it still doesn't explain how the cut cable and alarm failure were in no way connected or why it didn't come back on once power was restored. Thank you any way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petercts Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Hi regardless if the battery is new or old ,no alarm will last a 30 hour power cut once the battery is completely exhausted. . ie flat they will never recharge from the control panel the design is to provide approx. 8 hours battery power and then recharge within approx. 24 hours once the battery is flat the control box does not have the capacity to recharge it with out damage to the circuit board so a replacement battery is the cheaper option. The wireless battery replacement is often done early as precaution whilst on a service call otherwise people complain about paying twice when the low battery warning starts only a few months after the last visit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 56 minutes ago, Maria Gill said: why it didn't come back on once power was restored. A deeply discharged battery may prevent the controls from restarting cleanly as it pulling the voltage down... Quote Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Maria Gill said: I personally don't think it was a good price as it takes them less than 5 minutes to get to our house and it took less than 10 minutes to replace the batteries. If they traveled further it might have costed more ? they on site in normal working hrs (mon -fri in 9-5 hr) Quote Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) I must admit if I'd been told straight up that a battery had been deep discharged for 30 hrs or so, I would probably replace it, though I suppose if I then attended the system some hours since the power was restored, and my ACT tester was showing 7ah (I.e OK) I possibly wouldn't rush to replace it.. Also if I turned up to any job and was told it hadn't been serviced in years, I too would assume this meant all batteries were ancient nd would offer to replace them as a matter of course. However, I have now just re-read your post and didn't realise the system was only 21 months old (I'd still recommend device battery changes though, Scantronic suggests 3 year life absolute max. for most devices...) nor that you'd invited back the original installer. Bit of a funny one, price not really outrageous if I'm honest, possibly a slightly odd approach re. Device batteries, and yes, I would pass invoice to builders esp. If NOT itemised! Unfortunately not a very good system in the first place, and I assume your previous systems were not wireless and *should* have been regularly serviced. Edited October 14, 2017 by datadiffusion 1 Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJames Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 £50 is too cheap and £10.00 per battery is to dear but £104 is still reasonable, we would have charged £76 for the call out and around £4.50 per battery plus VAT so about the same. Sounds expensive but name a profession that isn't expensive, and your not paying for how far he travels or how long he was there for, you're paying for someone to do something you could not do yourself. The lithium batteries would not necessarily be influenced by the mains failure, the main control panel would have been and it would have taken a full 24hrs to recharge. Its difficult to surmise the exact events after power was returned to your panel, but I would guess that the battery would have pulled the system down until the battery was fully charged and the system had been restarted, and that would be when the low batteries in the detectors would have been discovered. In my experience Lithium batteries rarely last three years despite what the manufactures tell you, we change batteries yearly because its cheaper than calling us out between service visits. You could with the builders that the batteries would have not needed to be changed so soon if it not for the power incident, but they will be claiming on their insurance anyway. I suspect food in your freezer and fridge was spoilt, and you have suffered inconvenience no hot water, lights, etc, on top of the alarm problem, the insurance negotiators will be used to dealing with this sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, PeterJames said: You could with the builders that the batteries would have not needed to be changed so soon if it not for the power incident, but they will be claiming on their insurance anyway. I suspect food in your freezer and fridge was spoilt, and you have suffered inconvenience no hot water, lights, etc, on top of the alarm problem, the insurance negotiators will be used to dealing with this sort of thing. Realistically if the invoice just states 'to get alarm working after power failure, change batteries, £104' which it probably will, if it's even that detailed, then you have no need to worry anyway. Had it had a zero on the end, no doubt futher investigation would have been made by the builder and/or claims handler! Most board company excepted I have come to realise few if any other trades issue such detailed and itemised invoices as us, for our size at least... Edited October 14, 2017 by datadiffusion Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Remember on the CPX the system needs time to recharge the battery up to 11.8v and over to function or you will get Batt/Fuse fault. £114 to get the system serviced and new batteries is about the standard price Imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Gill Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 It's not the price that is bothering me so much as the engineer saying the damaged outside electric cable had absolutely nothing to do with the system failure. That's far too much of a coincidence. He also put that on the invoice and also put that the failure was due to the system not being serviced and that the sensor batteries had failed because of lack of service. He had no right to put any of that. There is no way they are not connected. Cable gets damaged by builders resulting in power outage for nearly 30 hours and that is the reason for the alarm failure - not because it wasn't serviced after its first year. I just don't believe him and I need someone to explain how it could be sheer coincidence that these things happened at exactly the same time? I need a plausible answer please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I don't know the gear but was it all sensors or just 1 or 2 Quote securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Maria Gill said: It's not the price that is bothering me so much as the engineer saying the damaged outside electric cable had absolutely nothing to do with the system failure. That's far too much of a coincidence. He also put that on the invoice and also put that the failure was due to the system not being serviced and that the sensor batteries had failed because of lack of service. He had no right to put any of that. There is no way they are not connected. Cable gets damaged by builders resulting in power outage for nearly 30 hours and that is the reason for the alarm failure - not because it wasn't serviced after its first year. I just don't believe him and I need someone to explain how it could be sheer coincidence that these things happened at exactly the same time? I need a plausible answer please! Write him a short, polite note stating that in the interests of quick, hassle free payment, a much 'plainer' invoice will be useful... However, again, events like this whilst probably nothing to do with the power cut, DO show that there is good reason to have your system regularly serviced. Perhaps by someone a little less passive-aggressive, but serviced none the less. 2 years is pretty much your limit on RF sensor batteries, 3 at the most on some door contacts unless high traffic. As above, many would recommend annually, which we do on certain sites (e.g. fully comprehensive cover) but as a minimum 2 years. Edited October 16, 2017 by datadiffusion Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJames Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Is the company an approved company? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixwheeledbeast Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 From what I gather on your posts above I would say:- Not many systems are designed to last 30 hours with no power. If the control panel battery is exhausted then your system may not power back up when the mains restores. Your sensor batteries are separate from the mains failure/control panel battery failure, if they where failing you will never truly know now. I would recommend radio sensors batteries are replace annually, they never last as long as the manufacturer claims. There is no way I wouldn't recommand a full service to a non-maintained customer if it had not been serviced within 12 months. If this isn't explained you'll be back again within 12 months to swap the batteries and the customer would expect this to be FOC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Gill Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 13 hours ago, james.wilson said: I don't know the gear but was it all sensors or just 1 or 2 5 wireless sensors I'm guessing with 5 batteries having been replaced. I just don't understand why the system didn't kick back in once the main battery recharged after the outside cable was repaired. He's absolutely adamant that the power outage was nothing to do with the system failure. We're now concerned that should there be a power failure again, the system won't kick back in once the main battery is recharged. None of it makes sense to be honest. What are the odds on the wireless sensor batteries failing at the exact same time as the power outage? Many thanks for your reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Gill Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 13 hours ago, sixwheeledbeast said: From what I gather on your posts above I would say:- Not many systems are designed to last 30 hours with no power. If the control panel battery is exhausted then your system may not power back up when the mains restores. Your sensor batteries are separate from the mains failure/control panel battery failure, if they where failing you will never truly know now. I would recommend radio sensors batteries are replace annually, they never last as long as the manufacturer claims. There is no way I wouldn't recommand a full service to a non-maintained customer if it had not been serviced within 12 months. If this isn't explained you'll be back again within 12 months to swap the batteries and the customer would expect this to be FOC. T 1 minute ago, Maria Gill said: 5 wireless sensors I'm guessing with 5 batteries having been replaced. I just don't understand why the system didn't kick back in once the main battery recharged after the outside cable was repaired. He's absolutely adamant that the power outage was nothing to do with the system failure. We're now concerned that should there be a power failure again, the system won't kick back in once the main battery is recharged. None of it makes sense to be honest. What are the odds on the wireless sensor batteries failing at the exact same time as the power outage? Many thanks for your reply The engineer said that the main battery had recharged itself and was fine but the wireless sensor batteries were dead due to not having had a service. A bit too much of a coincidence that they failed at the exact same time that the power was cut. As I said I don't believe that was the issue. Too much of a coincidence. We had no choice other than to call an engineer. We would not have purchased the system if it could fail in this way as its not fit for purpose. I get that it was off for 30 hours which is probably highly unusual but nontheless the main battery did recharge so it should have kicked back in. We don't want a system that, for want of a better word, is so 'flakey'. We also set it at night and not just whenever we're out and not just for security but also to comfort our son, because we were burgled in our last house when he was 5 and it caused night terrors that lasted 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Gill Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 18 hours ago, Hillbilly said: Remember on the CPX the system needs time to recharge the battery up to 11.8v and over to function or you will get Batt/Fuse fault. £114 to get the system serviced and new batteries is about the standard price Imo. Yes that's the message we got but when the main battery recharged we had no choice but to call an engineer as it still wouldn't work. He said it was our fault for not replacing the wireless batteries which were dead. It wasn't our fault. The system was working perfectly fine until the power outage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjsturner Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I don't install Risco kit, so can't help you very much here, but I'm just wondering what the protocol is for a detector that has "lost" comms with the main panel? is it possible that the detectors were polling more often for a reply from the main panel hence depleting whatever charge was left in the batteries? again I'm no expert on Risco so wondering what the other engineers think but I would say the batteries must have been low in the first instance, we change batteries each year on RF kit to maintain consistency of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 As above, if the panel was dead the detectors may have been polling (looking for it so to speak) this would tie in with all needing new batteries, but also on the back of this having a wireless system without a service contract is not a great idea imo 1 Quote Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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