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From Unknown PIR to Dual TEC


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Hi all

 

I would appreciate your advice if that's ok. Here's the issue.

 

I have 4 PIR sensors of unknown manufacturer and I want to replace them with Honeywell Dual TEC DT8016F5 sensors.

 

It should be a straight swap I suppose but when I compare the terminal blocks of the two sensors the PIRs have 8 terminals but the Dual TECs only have 6 terminals.

 

I have attached a picture of each terminal block. The blue one is the PIR. The black one is the new Dual TEC.

 

As you can see, the PIR has 4 connections made: 2 yellow to the "Relay" terminals and 2 to the supply terminals.

 

My question is: which terminals on the new Dual TEC terminal block do I connect the yellow "Relay" wires to?

 

I believe that the two "T" terminals on the new dual TEC are tamper terminals and that the terminals I need to use

for the yellow wires are the C and NC terminals. 

 

I also believe that it doesn't matter which of the two existing yellow wires goes to which C or NC terminal.

 

As you can see the tamper terminals on the old PIR are unoccupied. This is why I think the C and NC terminals are the ones

I need to connect these "Relay" wires to.

 

Can anyone confirm my beliefs this or set me straight?

 

There is no wiring information on the documentation that comes with the Dual TEC sensors and I sent Honeywell

a couple of emails to their support email account but nobody responds.

 

If you folks could help me out here I would very much appreciate it. 

 

Thanks and regards

 

Ray Pooley

 

 

 

 

IMAG0184.jpg

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1 minute ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

Looks a right mess. No tampers and two (or more?) sensors series on the same zone.

Yes, relay is the same as NC C here.

Old Risco PIR by the looks of it.

Thanks SWB. I was just wondering about that. I am not a sec installer but I am a mechanical and electrical engineer who is just not familiar with this type of tech application but I was wondering about that as a standard ie: wiring these things in series. In this context it would be more secure if they were all connected in parallel. That way a loose connection doesn't take out all of the sensors. There are 4 PIR sensors and it wouldn't surprise me if they were all in series. I will know when I lift the covers on the other three which I haven't done yet.  But I'm not in a position to make any config changes anyway. All the wiring is buried and it would involve too much upheaval. They are in a busy cafe and it's open 7 days a week. I just need to swap the sensors. Thanks for the confirmation.

1 minute ago, james.wilson said:

agreed

Thanks James. Appreciate it.

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37 minutes ago, RayPooley said:

In this context it would be more secure if they were all connected in parallel. That way a loose connection doesn't take out all of the sensors.

In parallel you would have to hope any burglar would trigger all the sensors at exactly the same time.

One Zone, One sensor.

 

39 minutes ago, RayPooley said:

 But I'm not in a position to make any config changes anyway. All the wiring is buried and it would involve too much upheaval. They are in a busy cafe and it's open 7 days a week. I just need to swap the sensors.

Depending on the wiring and the control equipment it could be done in EOL configuration.

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5 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

In parallel you would have to hope any burglar would trigger all the sensors at exactly the same time.

One Zone, One sensor.

 

Depending on the wiring and the control equipment it could be done in EOL configuration.

I'm talking about the power supply. But even if I wasn't I don't agree with your conclusion. If I have a bunch of sensors independently going back to the control unit it would only take one to send a signal back and trigger the alarm.  

12 minutes ago, aissecur said:

The PIR (in the first picture) looks like its manufactured by Crow, Im sure I have used these in the past without issue.

That's good to know. I will check that out. I did try to find one because I wanted to test both of them before going near the system. They are only cheap. No luck though. 

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4 minutes ago, RayPooley said:

I'm talking about the power supply. But even if I wasn't I don't agree with your conclusion. If I have a bunch of sensors independently going back to the control unit it would only take one to send a signal back and trigger the alarm. 

 

The power supply is already in parallel there is no other way with wiring shared like that.

If you wire a zone with multiple sensors in parallel you will have to trigger all at the same time to trigger that zone.

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3 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

 

The power supply is already in parallel there is no other way with wiring shared like that.

If you wire a zone with multiple sensors in parallel you will have to trigger all at the same time to trigger that zone.

I am not sure what a "zone" is in this context configuratively speaking so I will take your word for it.

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Are you taking payment for this job?

from the questions you are asking you seem to struggle with the basics, are you aware that if the place gets done over if its worth their while the insurers can pursue you if the system fails to perform as it should?

do you hold efficacy insurance?

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2 hours ago, petrolhead said:

Are you taking payment for this job?

from the questions you are asking you seem to struggle with the basics, are you aware that if the place gets done over if its worth their while the insurers can pursue you if the system fails to perform as it should?

do you hold efficacy insurance?

It's my cafe and I own the premises. I had it installed by someone who claimed to be a security installer, at least that's what he had on his van, yet, as others have pointed out, it appears to be a cr@p job.

I am a BSc qualified Mechanical and Electrical Engineer. It appears it might have been better had I installed it myself. Then I wouldn't be having to change the sensors now. I certainly think I am more qualified to do so than the guy who did. As I pointed out in my original question I have done my research and reached a conclusion. However it is always wise to seek the opinion of those who have gone before you. Hence my question the answers to which have confirmed my conclusions. This isn't rocket science. It's not even ordinary science. There is nothing at all complicated about this stuff. Only unfamiliar. 

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Hi Ray, may I ask what is the reason for changing the sensors in the first place?

If they satisfactorily detect within the area they are projected towards / you are not experiencing any false alarms and register at the control panel when triggered.. It may be worth keeping them installed.

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4 minutes ago, aissecur said:

Hi Ray, may I ask what is the reason for changing the sensors in the first place?

If they satisfactorily detect within the area they are projected towards / you are not experiencing any false alarms and register at the control panel when triggered.. It may be worth keeping them installed.

PIR only were fitted when premises were kitted out. Had a brick thrown through the window. Alarm didn't go off. Someone suggested fitting Dual TEC instead of PIR only. Allegedly the microwave technology will detect flying bricks. I have bought a Dual TEC sensor. I am looking for a PIR sensor that matches the ones in place. They are not marked. Aissecur suggested it might be a Crow make. I need to check that out. What I want to do is to buy and test the PIR and the Dual TEC side by side on a bench before doing anything with the existing system which is something I should be able to do. So I am in the planning phase at the moment.  

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2 hours ago, petrolhead said:

Are you taking payment for this job?

from the questions you are asking you seem to struggle with the basics, are you aware that if the place gets done over if its worth their while the insurers can pursue you if the system fails to perform as it should?

do you hold efficacy insurance?

Come on be serious , no one can do jack , you install a system they take no contract and don't have it attached to insurance etc 

 

However if the cafe owner took a discount from there insurer gets done over when they ask for the cert etc they simply won't pay out 

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3 minutes ago, al-yeti said:

Come on be serious , no one can do jack , you install a system they take no contract and don't have it attached to insurance etc 

 

However if the cafe owner took a discount from there insurer gets done over when they ask for the cert etc they simply won't pay out 

The more I read about this stuff it's practically plug and play.

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The dual technology sensor is not designed to be more sensitive, but less so. It's designed to reduce false alarms by requiring both PIR and Microwave technologies to trigger together in order to activate the zone.

 

You need to look at break glass or vibration sensors to detect the brick. The Honeywell Flexguard glass detectors and Viper vibration sensors are decent devices.

 

Most alarm detection devices are 12v DC with clean contacts, so are interchangable. Only the wireless devices are vendor specific due to the varying protocols and frequencies being used.

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4 minutes ago, GalaxyGuy said:

The dual technology sensor is not designed to be more sensitive, but less so. It's designed to reduce false alarms by requiring both PIR and Microwave technologies to trigger together in order to activate the zone.

 

You need to look at break glass or vibration sensors to detect the brick. The Honeywell Flexguard glass detectors and Viper vibration sensors are decent devices.

 

Most alarm detection devices are 12v DC with clean contacts, so are interchangable. Only the wireless devices are vendor specific due to the varying protocols and frequencies being used.

Thanks for the input. Are the break glass sensors wall mounted? 

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6 minutes ago, al-yeti said:

Until something complicated needs to be done .....

 

But competent diyers don't ask question you have asked above , I think that's what was meant above

The commentator above doesn't know enough about me or my background to pass judgement. As I said, there is nothing complicated about this stuff. It's just a matter of familiarization.

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4 minutes ago, RayPooley said:

The commentator above doesn't know enough about me or my background to pass judgement. As I said, there is nothing complicated about this stuff. It's just a matter of familiarization.

Perhaps your right about judgement,

 

Have you fitted the pirs yet?

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1 minute ago, RayPooley said:

The commentator above doesn't know enough about me or my background to pass judgement. As I said, there is nothing complicated about this stuff. It's just a matter of familiarization.

 

Ex  Construction Engineer, Banker, software eng.... blah blah blah

 

But inexperienced in the field of "alarm monkeying"

 

Even with your 2 degrees you made the mistake of employing a "prick end" to "bell up" your cafe... I suspect you didn't use a proper co.

 

The basic function of the alarm movement detector is to detect an intruder within the "protected premise" vandalism of the brick coming though the window isn't an intruder

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Mr? Veritas God

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2 minutes ago, al-yeti said:

Perhaps your right about judgement,

 

Have you fitted the pirs yet?

The PIRs have been fitted for three years. If you read my previous response to other members you will get a better idea of the context. If your'e interested of course. There seems to be surprisingly little in depth information about these sensors on the suppliers' web sites. 

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