MarkJohnson Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) Hello folks, I'm in the midst of researching alarms (Texecom, Honeywell, Pyronix) and would like some advice on where theoretically it would be best to position PIR sensors. Property is a ground floor flat, all across one level. Front door looks onto a busy street, while the back is a garden. I have done a plan to show you here: My questions / issues are: 1. Bedroom 1: PIR faces large bay window, might be an issue with light throughout the day? Location 2 probably better. 2. Hallway: PIR 2 overlooks entrance door and down the hall, so no issues there I don't think? Entrance to flat is marked with an X. I was thinking to put keypad next to door - should control box be mounted as far away as possible from keypad? I have a basement, can put it there if that is the best thing to do. 3. Bed 2: PIR #4 can be mounted in corner above patio doors. 4. I have lots of radiators in the flat, most of these are vertical radiators around 180cm high x 35cm wide, sitting 30cm off the floor, so topping out at 210cm or so. The ceilings in the living room area are approximately 2.25m hence I am concerned about possibility of placement in locations 6 and 7 for example and this is why I was thinking about #8 as a possibility, above the patio doors, in the middle, logic being away from sources of heat (rads). Location #9 I don't think will work well as it is next to a Velux window as shown on the plan and light will shine down through it and play havoc with the PIR. 5. Outside bell box decision is simple - outside, on the wall, above bay window. Would be grateful for any words of wisdom / correction. Thank you! Edited December 21, 2016 by MarkJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 You need to decide on pir , good quads or dualtec and more or less anywhere no facing to many heat sources windows etc Or something like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Lounge, position 9, and change from pir to dualtech That space where position 5 is, if its bells only I wouldnt bother as none of it is optimal 4 and 2 quad pirs should be fine Position 3 I would fit a door contact rather than pir if poss Dont forget a dummy bellbox at the rear. This is all just top of my head thinking without properly seeing the physical reality of course. Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Good morning folks, very helpful advice, thank you. So positions #2 and #4 are fine. With rgds to a PIR sensor for the living room, I think I might remove radiator next to position #6 and have it there... There will be 3 door contacts in all - front entry door marked X, bed 2 and garden patio doors out back. Follow up questions: 1. Should I note have a PIR sensor in the corridor where entrance to flat is, just a door contact? 2. Any views on how far away the control panel needs to be away from the keypad or can both be next to each other? Edited December 22, 2016 by MarkJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, MarkJohnson said: With rgds to a PIR sensor for the living room, I think I might remove piping for the radiator next to #6 and have it there... Unless you are trying to achieve 'alarm confirmation', which is unlikely on an unmonitored system, I would not be overly concerned about having anything in the living space which appears to have no windows and is only accessible via other rooms with detectors. 5 minutes ago, MarkJohnson said: Any views on how far away the control panel needs to be away from the keypad or can both be next to each other? Ideally, it should be 'hidden'; esp. on an unmonitored system. Also, as it may create a tiny 'buzz' so bedrooms are never recommended. Is the stair cupboard possible? Or even in the 'utility' cupboard / back of cabinet? Edited December 22, 2016 by datadiffusion Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Hello chap! I've done another little diagram: D = contact sensor location The area marked with a yellow box is stairs to small basement / storage area. This is also where the fuse box is located. Shall I stick the control panel there and the keypad opposite entrance door? Edited December 22, 2016 by MarkJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Yes, that's ideal for the controls, and the keypad should be as close to the final exit/entry door as possible. Good idea to add contacts on all the externals if you can. If it was mine, AND the basement door has a door closer AND it's usually left locked, I might put a sensor on the basement door IF there was a spare zone, for what it costs. Although again this would be more in the interests of confirmation since the system itself is protected by the approaches. Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Great, thank you for that. I think I will go with a Texecom system. Just found out that Texecom don't do door contacts to my knowledge so I will source these from somebody else eg. Honeywell. Door contacts will wire using 4 core and PIR sensors with 6 core. In terms of connectivity, is it best to go for a wifi module so that the system can alert me via an app or is GSM with a pay as you go sim best? Edited December 22, 2016 by MarkJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Nope, most manufactuers don't do door contacts - buy Knights or Elmdene, avoid DIY 'range filler' stuff like Honeywell contacts. I would wire using EOL / FSL so be sure to buy contacts with built in resistors, you will want 2k2 for tamper and 4k7 for alarm. The colour code for Elmdene is 'Red' for those, a lot of the Knights products are more universal. GSM is yesterdays tech, so whilst proper monitoring is always recommended (someone external noting that the actual alarm itself is always talking back, i.e polling) the ComWifi module is very popular - BUT - if this is a 'new build' and you can get wires to the box, I'd go with ComIP and wire it to the router. Saves a lot of greif. Edited December 22, 2016 by datadiffusion com options 1 Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 Thank you, useful info, I would have slipped up on that. Another thing I was thinking... At position 3, why don't I go for one of these, mounted on the ceiling, would it be ok in between a row of downlights? Ceiling height is 2.6m exactly. Texecom RF360 Ceiling Detector Pic of living room area to illustrate my point: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) They are good - but will be potentially blinded by the light / triggered by heat gains from those big windows. You definitely want to consider a corner mounted, pointed away from window, dualtech i.e. MW/PIR DT IMHO TBH I only ever use ceiling detectors in wide open office spaces and as a last resort - if I had as good access as you seem to (I wasn't sure if you did being it was a flat) I'd go corners every time. I was going to suggest a ceiling one, maybe, in that living space narrow bit, but I really wouldn't bother, tbh Edited December 22, 2016 by datadiffusion 1 Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 Great help, thank you. I am sure I will have a couple more questions, but for the time being, I roughly know what is needed. Going for Texecom Premier Elite range, wired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 6 hours ago, MarkJohnson said: Great help, thank you. I am sure I will have a couple more questions, but for the time being, I roughly know what is needed. Going for Texecom Premier Elite range, wired. You running any 12core in this system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted December 25, 2016 Author Share Posted December 25, 2016 I was just going to use 4 core for the door sensors, and run 6 core cable for the PIR sensors...I don't need 12 core anywhere, do I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy™ Posted December 25, 2016 Share Posted December 25, 2016 42 minutes ago, MarkJohnson said: I was just going to use 4 core for the door sensors, and run 6 core cable for the PIR sensors...I don't need 12 core anywhere, do I? 4 core will do for most detectors if using EOL, although i usually use 6 core if you do use texecom, the RKP has onboard zones too, so you can wire detectors back to there, gives you 10 zones without needing an expander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted December 25, 2016 Share Posted December 25, 2016 What about 4mm twin and earth you use any? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 al that joke is literally dead mate 1 Quote securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 Did anyone send a card in the end? Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 Morning folks, sorry for the delay, but a small update for you all, with the added Brucey Bonus of a couple questions! In terms of cabling, I've run 6 core to most locations and ordered some Elmdene door contacts (flush mount for wooden doors, surface mount for aluminium sliding patio doors in living room / master bedroom, EOL resistors as recommended, so thanks for that! In terms of PIR sensors, I've gone for Texecom's Premier Elite DT sensor, as recommended (thank you Mr DataDiffusion) so I get both volumetric and microwave coverage. So far, so good. However, I still have some sensor positioning questions...pics to illustrate. Locations #1 + #2 are fine, I think we agree on that. Main issue is what to do about the big open space that is the kitchen / living room? (1) Location #5 is about 5.5 metres away from the large patio doors but still faces / look at them. This would cover the living room area. Is this an ok location for the DT sensor or should it be elsewhere in the room? (2) I'd like a DT sensor in location #3 if possible, as that will cover anybody trying to sneak in via the bathroom...would location #3 be ok? I would like to avoid location #4 as it is directly above a vertical radiator, whereas with #3 it is further away from the rad. (3) If I go with #5 and #3, because of the beam that is boxed in by the plasterboard, they wouldn't see each other hence won't false alarm? Or would they?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 5 is as good as it gets whilst still avoiding the rads... 3 and 4 for me much of a muchness, if 3 is a little bit further from the rad, that's possibly better. The microwave beam can go through walls - but that's why it's adjustable to prevent that when it's installed. 1 Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) One more question...is it worth having a PIR sensor in the top left corner of the hallway (right above / next to entrance to bedroom 2), looking at the keypad (location 3), as at the moment, the only thing protecting the keypad is the door contact sensor on main door to the flat...if somebody manages to defeat it / it malfunctions, the keypad isn't guarded as it were. Is this a necessary addition or am I overloading / overdoing it? Location 3, below... Edited January 24, 2017 by MarkJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Nope, wouldn't worry 1 Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) Do you mean not to worry as in, "yes, add a sensor there" or don't worry as in "don't add sensor 3, it will be fine without it." Which type of worry is it? Edited January 24, 2017 by MarkJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Don't add another sensor 1 Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkJohnson Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) Got it. I guess it's one of those less is more situations! Out of interest, notwithstanding the wall and that it faces into the living room, wouldn't sensor 4 be able to pick up something if the door to the flat door is flung open? Edited January 24, 2017 by MarkJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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