Kate Scorey Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I think I'm about ready to blow my own fuse right now. We are in mid discussion about Fused Spurs and the NSI rules and regs regarding them. We have one person saying... it just need a competent person...to install it. Then the rest of us are saying it requires an electrician or a member of our staff that have part P. Can someone clear this up. Before I loose the will to live. What do you all do? We have been on the phone to NSI who seemed a bit lost. So we contacted our local electrician company who said the majority were correct. Any help guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 There is absolutely no requirement for any additional fused spur being added to a ring circuit or lighting circuit to be doneby a Part P bod. But it should be a competent person and should be certificated for the tests that were done. Obvious exceptions would be; Domestics in a Bathroom or when any part of the cable runs outdoors with a junction box also being outside Connecting direct to the CU and prob lots of others.... Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I thought competant was limited to your own property? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9651 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 nope You done need to be qualified to be an electrician, just competent. Under the scope of competent, the only way to "prove" you are, would be works done follows 7671. So thats where all the paperwork comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rulland Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Copy of a reply from NSI when I questioned certain lack of testing etc in a previous employ. Where an alarm company installs a fused spur, it is important that the electrical safety of the fused spur and the fixed electrical installation supplying the fused spur should have been checked. Thus, the alarm company should carry out the appropriate BS 7671 inspection and tests on the electrical installation of the building. These electrical safety checks include inspecting and testing the main earthing arrangements at the main distribution board of the building, including the main equipotential earth bonding arrangements, inspecting and testing the means for automatic disconnection of supply (fusing or circuit breakers), etc, as well as checking earth loop impedance, and polarity at the fused spur point. (Please note that I am not intending here to give a full list of the inspection and testing needed; simply to say that it will need to include these matters, among other matters). I would suggest that some of the inspections and tests on the electrical installation of the building may be best done before the fused spur is installed, in case there are electrical safety issues to resolve within the building. It is of course necessary to carry out all the necessary electrical safety checks after the fused spur has been installed. Records of these checks would need to be kept and a minor works certificate would need to be issued. Please note that electrical work in dwellings now falls within the scope of Part P of the Building Regulations under which certain work must legally be notified to the relevant local authority. For example, this would apply if the fused spur is being run from a separate way (i.e. as a new circuit) from the distribution board. Yours sincerely Tony Weeks Technical Manager Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfastengineer Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Just back from a meeting this afternoon were this was brought up. Basically site has an intruder alarm installed by national company we have won tender to install a smoke cloak in all sites it was suggested we add spur unit beside each IAP panel spur and spur off into existing can my guys do this without issuing a cert for adding to circuit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 We have 2 or 3 electricians who we work with and they will always put the spurs in for us and test. I actively use the fact we do not install the spurs (as we're not qualified and/or more importantly competent ) and those other firms just chucking in spurs are probably breaking the law. Those non-electricians who install spurs - do you test the work you've done and do the paperwork etc? Thought not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goncall Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Copy of a reply from NSI when I questioned certain lack of testing etc in a previous employ. Where an alarm company installs a fused spur, it is important that the electrical safety of the fused spur and the fixed electrical installation supplying the fused spur should have been checked. Thus, the alarm company should carry out the appropriate BS 7671 inspection and tests on the electrical installation of the building. These electrical safety checks include inspecting and testing the main earthing arrangements at the main distribution board of the building, including the main equipotential earth bonding arrangements, inspecting and testing the means for automatic disconnection of supply (fusing or circuit breakers), etc, as well as checking earth loop impedance, and polarity at the fused spur point. (Please note that I am not intending here to give a full list of the inspection and testing needed; simply to say that it will need to include these matters, among other matters). I would suggest that some of the inspections and tests on the electrical installation of the building may be best done before the fused spur is installed, in case there are electrical safety issues to resolve within the building. It is of course necessary to carry out all the necessary electrical safety checks after the fused spur has been installed. Records of these checks would need to be kept and a minor works certificate would need to be issued. Please note that electrical work in dwellings now falls within the scope of Part P of the Building Regulations under which certain work must legally be notified to the relevant local authority. For example, this would apply if the fused spur is being run from a separate way (i.e. as a new circuit) from the distribution board. Yours sincerely Tony Weeks Technical Manager i doubt anyone does that,most alarm engineers dont have the gear nevermind knowing what type of supply or earthing arrangement is coming into a building,best to get a spark into do it saves the hassle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarm Protection Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 No part P in Jockland! Quote ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9651 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Just back from a meeting this afternoon were this was brought up. Basically site has an intruder alarm installed by national company we have won tender to install a smoke cloak in all sites it was suggested we add spur unit beside each IAP panel spur and spur off into existing can my guys do this without issuing a cert for adding to circuit? Any modification to the supply side would/should need a minor works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Just in the process of completing a refurbishment with int, fire, access & cctv I'm of the opinion none of the electrical installation has been tested the FP feed to the fire alarm had dead short on it (L+E) sparks had drilled though it weeks ago, No continuity on L for the cctv & access ring main in the server rm, but all energised Quote Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo66 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 For years and years we have fitted our own Spurs with no certificates or proper testing, until recently. do you guys add a set price for a spur onto your quote to the customer? It becomes difficult in a domestic environment when the location of a control panel can change so quickly on install day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 We have 2 or 3 electricians who we work with and they will always put the spurs in for us and test. I actively use the fact we do not install the spurs (as we're not qualified and/or more importantly competent ) and those other firms just chucking in spurs are probably breaking the law. Those non-electricians who install spurs - do you test the work you've done and do the paperwork etc? Thought not. Im qual but not part p, as I try to avoid panels in bathrooms and Sheds! And non domestic isnt under the scheme as we all know. All paperwork using iet model forms. Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfastengineer Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 We don't have part P over here. Any domestic install I have ever done we have installed own fused spur. Don't do much domestic now and most jobs are new were spurs are in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Sized up a job this week where no wiring in a new build but a spur on a dedicated circuit marked alarm. Must have been for a wireless system but not even a keypad wire. Odd. Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goncall Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Sized up a job this week where no wiring in a new build but a spur on a dedicated circuit marked alarm. Must have been for a wireless system but not even a keypad wire. Odd. all these new build housing estates have a dedicated mcb from the db from what ive seen you pay extra for 1st fix and extra again it you want a system installed by the builder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Yeah thought that except customer says they got to choose the kitchen but were never offered an alarm Maybe some Co they had lined up pulled out Oh and there is a no bellbox covenant on the whole estate, oops!! Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goncall Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Yeah thought that except customer says they got to choose the kitchen but were never offered an alarm Maybe some Co they had lined up pulled out Oh and there is a no bellbox covenant on the whole estate, oops!! im surprised,i know a lad who worked for a house bashing co doing installs for major builders he was racking the money in doing 3 and 4 first and second fixes a day tho people would rather upgrade the kitchen than have an alarm i agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarm Protection Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Most new builds here have a spur next to mains for the alarm. Cable up to external bell and all wireless. I don't like it but customers expect wireless these days. No part P here and never had a problem. Quote ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goncall Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Most new builds here have a spur next to mains for the alarm. Cable up to external bell and all wireless. I don't like it but customers expect wireless these days. No part P here and never had a problem. most here are the illuminated signage kind saves on the street lamps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlarmScot Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) im surprised,i know a lad who worked for a house bashing co doing installs for major builders he was racking the money in doing 3 and 4 first and second fixes a day tho people would rather upgrade the kitchen than have an alarm i agree We do install a lot in new builds but not often via house builder expect one house builder does get commission if they get they can get home owner to get alarm fitted which I think works well however our sales team go and target the new homes after a few weeks of people moving in. Which most people do welcome alarm just to feel safer as if you talk about all there new gadgets and how you don't really know your neighbours and how burglar more likely to rob a house without alarm. Most new builds here have a spur next to mains for the alarm. Cable up to external bell and all wireless. I don't like it but customers expect wireless these days. No part P here and never had a problem. Yea most people do expect Wireless Alarms and I understand that with a new house but again most new houses you can't paint or put much on wall as you need allow the house to settle. Adding Circuits - We are like other poster, We get our sparks to come in add a circuit and try get any extra jobs while at it from customer but i unsure what actual rule is as I know company policy is I am not allowed to touch electrics on any property and I must call our sparks however our sparks work for same company so I think its just insurance but I can image it be law as you don't want 'Dodgy Alarm Fitter who thinks he knows what he doing and burns down a house' Edited November 11, 2014 by AlarmScot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarm Protection Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Ok Alarmscot. We must work in the same area? Quote ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlarmScot Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Ok Alarmscot. We must work in the same area? We may well be, I work for a Scottish firm so most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I work for an English firm. A lot here are in my area too. Quote securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Ok James. We must work in the same area? Quote I really can't be ar**** with it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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