22 replies to this topic

[jameswilson]

The Insurers have raised an issue where 'some' companies are inviting customer to change there alarm transmission system. This new transmission system is of a lower grade than the device being removed.
The clients and installers should be aware that where this has occured this would negate the customers insurance, even if the device worked as intended.

It is essential that any replacement to any part of the customers alarm system meets the agreed grade of the alarm system or matches the specified performance required.(pre en systems, and those replacing red gsm with a grade 2 communicator etc)

[PeterJames]

RJBsec, on 20 May 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

"What Grade is your existing system?"

"Eh!"

"Well do you have the original spec from the previous installer?"

"Um, well ... email somewhere ..."

"Insurance conditions?"

"Don't think we ever had any."

"Ok then we'll call it Grade 2."

"Whatever ... is that cheaper?"

I always always always do my own risk assessment, even with takeovers. I then recommend the grade it should be and provide a quote to upgrade it to that grade. If they accept the cheaper option then I have it in writing what I recommended and a signed acceptance of the option accepted.

Ive also taken to email my quotes in pdf format locked so that they cant be tampered with

[MrHappy]

jameswilson, on 20 May 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

The Insurers have raised an issue where 'some' companies are inviting customer to change there alarm transmission system.

many (not me) are replacing dualcom+ with with the sim based units,

[jameswilson]

Yes. I know of companies (not us) that are pulling out redcare classic and red gsm to install G2 dualpath.

Worrying for them IMO

[arfur mo]

surely this IS covered in the regs?

if not, given the insurance co's are well known to dive out of any payment liability and for the flimsiest reasons, surely ANY modifications to the pre-agreed alarms specification, including temporary disconnections and alterations for building works etc, it has always been notifiable to the clients insurance company from year dot?

on a take over/upgrade/alteration, by default if you always prior to doing so you issue a covering letter to the client to sign stating for them to advise their Insurance Co promptly of the listed changes, and get it appended to the policy you have covered both your and the clients ass?

i've personally done this for years in the T&C's

regs
Arfur Mo

[jameswilson]

It depends. In some instances its covered by the regs in some it isnt a reg break.
The issue as i read it is that on an old BS4737 system for example might have redcare on it. At the time grading didnt exist and insurance companies specified 'brands' ie redcare. This has now achieved Grade 4, but grading isnt relevant to Non EN systems.
So some installers are pulling out single path redcare and replacing it with dualpath at Grade 2.
It sounds better and in some instances it is. But in others its far far worse.

Its just a note to say that the insurance industry are concerned by this trend.
Ill add we have not been doing this.

Im sure others will note that they have been told that people are doing this by their csl / redcare rep.
It bothered me when it was first suggested some time ago, and now its bothering the insurance co's.

However if a client was to ring up and ask their insurer if this was ok, i doubt anyone would care and if they didth they wouldnt understand it and say 'yeah dualcoms fine' etc etc

IMO the insurance industry need to grab this by the horns and insist on a grade for the risk. That way if it was a G3 system with G4 signalling, or a G2 with G2 signalling it would be totally clear what is needed and that these changes cant be done.

It also depends how the installer is wording it. ie if the installer were to do it without any written instruction from the client then the installer would carry the can for any issues. However if the client orders it on the belief this is a good idea then the client carries the can.

As i said 'worrying'

James

[IAS]

Aviva are refusing all cover for redcare "secure" products (except IP) at this time.

[arfur mo]

IAS, on 21 May 2010 - 02:04 PM, said:

Aviva are refusing all cover for redcare "secure" products (except IP) at this time.

Ouch! (for BT)!

as that realy smacks of their total disapproval for 'secure' and so distrust imo.

regs
Arfur Mo

James,
i think the long and the short of it is to cover your as before anybody else's, and the best way is a signed sheet of paper stating both the intention and facts.

regs
Arfur Mo

[jameswilson]

IAS, on 21 May 2010 - 02:04 PM, said:

Aviva are refusing all cover for redcare "secure" products (except IP) at this time.

Do they accept grade 2 & 3 dualcom?

[IAS]

jameswilson, on 21 May 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Do they accept grade 2 & 3 dualcom?

in a "Pulp Fiction" voice -


"I never asked about dualcom........"

[jameswilson]

IAS, on 21 May 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:

in a "Pulp Fiction" voice -


"I never asked about dualcom........"

lol

im assuming from that then they are a grade 4 only shop?

[PeterJames]

jameswilson, on 21 May 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Do they accept grade 2 & 3 dualcom?

We have just had an Aviva customer been told to upgrade from G2 DC to G4 DC, I would of said this is slightly OTT as the most value that could be taken in one hit would be around £10k max, any professional burglar would be wanting earn much more for the risk of getting caught. So that only leaves amateurs who wouldn't have a clue how to get round a digi let alone dual path. Not that Im complaining obviously I get more money for G4

[IAS]

was told to me as

"some guy in a lab coat has got upset about line test time delays, if the radio side is down........"

[jameswilson]

PeterJames, on 21 May 2010 - 07:33 PM, said:

We have just had an Aviva customer been told to upgrade from G2 DC to G4 DC, I would of said this is slightly OTT as the most value that could be taken in one hit would be around £10k max, any professional burglar would be wanting earn much more for the risk of getting caught. So that only leaves amateurs who wouldn't have a clue how to get round a digi let alone dual path. Not that Im complaining obviously I get more money for G4

We mainly use G4 red gsm, but have been fitting G3 secures lately. Im not an IP fan for mainstream use so it causes me an issue

However anything that has an insurance requirement is Red gsm anyway. Im also much happier with the performance of redgsm when both path fail

[jb-eye]

IAS, on 21 May 2010 - 02:04 PM, said:

Aviva are refusing all cover for redcare "secure" products (except IP) at this time.

I will concur that we recently upgraded a job from digi to red secure G2 and Aviva said Dual com G3 as minimum.

[IAS]

I could name a well known northern car spares supplier that currently thinks it`s dealt the deal of a lifetime with the new supplier ........ of course they wouldn`t listen.

[alterEGO]

IAS, on 21 May 2010 - 02:04 PM, said:

Aviva are refusing all cover for redcare "secure" products (except IP) at this time.

good

[MrHappy]

IAS, on 21 May 2010 - 08:16 PM, said:

I could name a well known northern car spares supplier that currently thinks it`s dealt the deal of a lifetime with the new supplier ........ of course they wouldn`t listen.

I note secom appear to have slapped there labels over kings boxes on my local netto stores, netto has just sold out to asda wonder how long before another box goes up ?

[alterEGO]

MrHappy, on 27 May 2010 - 06:32 PM, said:

I note secom appear to have slapped there labels over kings boxes on my local netto stores, netto has just sold out to asda wonder how long before another box goes up ?

who does PC world & currys etc at the min? because they won't for long.