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Mains Powered Smokes Or On Intruder Alarm?


daiashthomas

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new extension to house and need hard wired fire detection with battery backup

could i get away with fitting smokes in my house on the intruder alarm as it gives different sounds for fire and alarm?

as they are technically mains powered with battery back up, instead of the mains powered ones whitch are more expensive plus i want to link them to the intruder alarm anyway for signaling purposes.

thanks

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Guest Thunderfingers
new extension to house and need hard wired fire detection with battery backup

could i get away with fitting smokes in my house on the intruder alarm as it gives different sounds for fire and alarm?

as they are technically mains powered with battery back up, instead of the mains powered ones whitch are more expensive plus i want to link them to the intruder alarm anyway for signaling purposes.

thanks

Personally I'd keep them away from the intruder - how many are you installing?

as far as the signalling goes (and the intruder guys will step in here) Im not 100% but I know that the brigade do not like attending to non fire alarm system call outs.

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agreed, they may not like it, but until they enforce bafe then it wont stop.

As mainly intruder id take the oposite view. While an intruder alaerm can never offer what is required from a full 5839 fire alarm, assuming you have enough local sounder (ie local to each detector) then id say that smokes linked to an intruder alarm are better than interlinked. I say this with no real expereice of interlinked etc, and have 4 x menvier m12 4 in 1 smoke detector 's in my own house.

James

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as for fire regs - could not possibly comment, but right of the bat i would not connect any smoke detector to any intruder alarm system, i've posted in the past i would ban the practice, but i respect other companies do this and nothing illigal about it..

imo the problems are many, the very 1st concern being distinguishing between a faulty intruder and real fire alerts, simply as the audible signalling being from the same sounder devices which are not fire rated or placed as often as a true fire alarm so the minimum noise is reached in all parts.

might be fine if you or your familie might know the difference before you home fills up with smoke, but what about a guest or a neighbours child? even a neighbour? if you intruder side suffers a series of false alarms the 'respect' level falls which could be a tragedy.

by mixing a vital to life and a vital to contents system you risk a fault on one impacting on the other making boith systems inactive, not good idea surely?

ideally you would wire the system as a proper full on fire alarm, if thats not viable and you must have a 'diy' style fire alarm (and i'd need some convincing you would) then use a separate intruder panel and 12 volts smoke detectors specifically designed for the connection to intruder panels and separate sounders/strobes clearly marked.

otherwise as i see it you might as well get some simple cheap battery detectors and spray them about for what extra good it will be but thats just my opinion :P .

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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As it's your own house I see no real problem with it so long as the battery back up and positioning complies with Document B.

The battery back up of the panel will be 8hrs where as the internal battery on a mains powered smoke will be many days. However the upside like you say will be the monitoring

Chris.

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Arf, he is talking about interlinked smoke sensors with built in sounders.... connected via normal mains cable not a full fire alarm. I agree that int fire shouldnt be used in the place of a full fire if that is needed, but most people have 9v smoke alarms and intruder connected are amuch better idea. I dont have a 5839 system in my own house with red fp coming down the wall in my hall to a huge panel for example.

James

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Arf, he is talking about interlinked smoke sensors with built in sounders.... connected via normal mains cable not a full fire alarm. I agree that int fire shouldnt be used in the place of a full fire if that is needed, but most people have 9v smoke alarms and intruder connected are amuch better idea. I dont have a 5839 system in my own house with red fp coming down the wall in my hall to a huge panel for example.

James

hi james,

not totally clear if needed for building regs for some reason as he says -:

"new extension to house and need hard wired fire detection with battery backup" is this a b&b by any chance?

i've serviced the brk ones for a client, which are mains and pp3 backup, one set's all the others off by the sound emitted but they worry me if a door is closed.

also he mentions in a round about way using intruder linked - well thats one of my real pet hates

there are battery powered ones brk again i think, which can be linked by cable, worst thing about any battery smokes is identifying which one is bleeping on a flat battery :ninja:

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Guest Thunderfingers
hi james,

not totally clear if needed for building regs for some reason as he says -:

"new extension to house and need hard wired fire detection with battery backup" is this a b&b by any chance?

i've serviced the brk ones for a client, which are mains and pp3 backup, one set's all the others off by the sound emitted but they worry me if a door is closed.

also he mentions in a round about way using intruder linked - well thats one of my real pet hates

there are battery powered ones brk again i think, which can be linked by cable, worst thing about any battery smokes is identifying which one is bleeping on a flat battery :ninja:

regs

alan

Alan.Most of the mains with battery back ups now come with a 10 year lithium (if not as standard then as an option.Personally I'd go KIDDE but there are other manufacturers out there).This covers the actually recommended life of the detector and is non-servicable so the whole thing gets replaced.

I noticed that (and I may have picked this up wrong in the post) that initially it is a house then in reference to the options it becomes would it be acceptable in my house.

I know that in commercials the brigade only turn out the once to smokes that are not part of a 5839 system.

Under part 6 you can of course use an intruder system depending on the size of the house.If it's big enough you have to have a 5839 Part 1 system (including MCP's!).

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Alan.Most of the mains with battery back ups now come with a 10 year lithium (if not as standard then as an option.Personally I'd go KIDDE but there are other manufacturers out there).This covers the actually recommended life of the detector and is non-servicable so the whole thing gets replaced.

I noticed that (and I may have picked this up wrong in the post) that initially it is a house then in reference to the options it becomes would it be acceptable in my house.

I know that in commercials the brigade only turn out the once to smokes that are not part of a 5839 system.

Under part 6 you can of course use an intruder system depending on the size of the house.If it's big enough you have to have a 5839 Part 1 system (including MCP's!).

thanks TF,

building regs have undergone so many changes in recent years, my niece was forced to install a disabled access ramp on her new build house to get pm - yet nobody in the familly is disabled, they are 1 of 5 houses in a tiny yorkshire hamlet.

it has meant they had to make the back door the main entrance, spoiling the look and aesthetics considerably. her brother has now to do the same on his new house. obviously we should all be planning to be enlightened, but seems a bit ott. guess it's down to our remote government in brussels, i'd bet before long thy will have us all new houses plain white or black - for the colour blind :rolleyes: .

i have seen those 10 year ones, could perhaps solve the problem of tenants knicking the batteries for other portable items, but tbh this a favour job for a good client, as normally i steer clear of anything to do with smoke/fire alarms.

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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the only signaling will be to me via speech and text dialer. (and then the Mrs if i don't acknowledge the message)

and it's my own house and only require 2 smokes, plus i would probably use a sound bomb for the fire and just the speaker for the intruder, although you can have different sounds from the speakers.

and as far as batteries go I'll be fitting at least a 17ah to intruder panel.

and also as far as disturbing my neighbors goes they are 25 - 30m away on one side and over 40m on the other side of me.

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the only signaling will be to me via speech and text dialer. (and then the Mrs if i don't acknowledge the message)

and it's my own house and only require 2 smokes, plus i would probably use a sound bomb for the fire and just the speaker for the intruder, although you can have different sounds from the speakers.

and as far as batteries go I'll be fitting at least a 17ah to intruder panel.

and also as far as disturbing my neighbors goes they are 25 - 30m away on one side and over 40m on the other side of me.

did they move away after they heard you was going to fit a sound bomb - and a 17ahr batt\\/

just kidding sound a great place to live.

Gardtec sell sb's built into a strobe unit, and they come in pretty red, yelow and white colours too, so ideal for you needs, you could even slip a into well shelterd spots a couple under the eav's in case you out riding horses around your garden and it trips :) .

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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By far the best make of mains smokes are the 'AICO - Easyfit' range.

These also have an add on extra 'relay base' which can be fitted to either of thelinterlinked detectors. This can be used to signal to other kit such as a dialler or intruder alarm zone.

You wont get a 999 response anyway! Just the uneasyness of the phone call from your dialler while you wonder if it is a false alarm, or your other halfs cooking!

Email : martin@askthetrades.co.uk

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Guest Thunderfingers
By far the best make of mains smokes are the 'AICO - Easyfit' range.

These also have an add on extra 'relay base' which can be fitted to either of thelinterlinked detectors. This can be used to signal to other kit such as a dialler or intruder alarm zone.

You wont get a 999 response anyway! Just the uneasyness of the phone call from your dialler while you wonder if it is a false alarm, or your other halfs cooking!

Aye,forgot about those.

But I suppose that the easiet solution (if not the most asthetic!) is the intruder one as it isn't for ARC response.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest G.J.M
Alan.Most of the mains with battery back ups now come with a 10 year lithium (if not as standard then as an option.Personally I'd go KIDDE but there are other manufacturers out there).This covers the actually recommended life of the detector and is non-servicable so the whole thing gets replaced.

I noticed that (and I may have picked this up wrong in the post) that initially it is a house then in reference to the options it becomes would it be acceptable in my house.

I know that in commercials the brigade only turn out the once to smokes that are not part of a 5839 system.

Under part 6 you can of course use an intruder system depending on the size of the house.If it's big enough you have to have a 5839 Part 1 system (including MCP's!).

u don't have to have mcp's matey..there is a small loop hole in p6 which i will look again for.

i have just fitted an a/addressable system in my house to LD1 Grade A. The joys of having freebies. Advanced panel and Apollo detection.

and a free Galaxy too.

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Guest Thunderfingers
u don't have to have mcp's matey..there is a small loop hole in p6 which i will look again for.

i have just fitted an a/addressable system in my house to LD1 Grade A. The joys of having freebies. Advanced panel and Apollo detection.

and a free Galaxy too.

Any left overs????

and I wuz referring to this bit -

a) Manual call points should be installed in very large single-family dwellings (including dwellings with long-term lodgers), and very large dwellings shared by no more than six persons, generally living in a similar manner to a single family (e.g. houses rented by a number of students), if a verbal fire warning, shouted by a person on the ground floor, is unlikely to be heard by all occupants of the dwelling.

NOTE 1 This situation is only likely to apply in the case of houses with four or more storeys above ground floor level and large,

multi-storey mansions, country houses, etc. However, it will generally be appropriate to, at least, consider the need for

incorporation of manual call points in any Grade A system that is installed.

NOTE 2 This recommendation applies to both Category LD and Category PD systems.

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Bungalow, existing installation (originally T/o intruder with smokes) customer did a BIG shelly conversion. We carcussed new alarm to include 2 smokes - hall and landing.

On the 2nd fix we didn't connect smokes as sparky had fitted 2 mains interlinked (hall and landing), not through choice but building inspector wouldn't pass without them.

Guess the interpretation of the regs lies with him. When you've got to keep him happy on a (say)

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  • 2 months later...

Yeah, the building inspectors around here state that according to the building regs (although personally i dont know whether its accurate or not, i just do as im told :unsure: ) all smoke alarms have to be mains powered and interlinked.

We even got pulled on one job because the smoke alarms where on the same breaker as the lights. Which to me makes more sense than to have them on there own breaker.

Lights trip out, then you get a spark in to sort it asap. Whereas if the smokes trip you only realise once the damn thing starts beeping because the batteries are going low!

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If your smokes have battery backup, they can go on either their own circuit or a lighting circuit. Their own circuit being prefered.

If your smokes DO NOT have battery backup, they MUST be on a local well used lighting circuit. (for the reason you mention).

Email : martin@askthetrades.co.uk

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What if someone leaves a light on, goes to bed, the bulb blows, circuit trips - smokes without battery backup if on that light circuit would then be dead until you wake up and reset the breaker. If there is a fire during the night, the smokes would not alert you in those circumstances...

Kids often leave the lights on, bulbs are always blowing in our house, and it trips the breaker every time one blows.

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  • 4 weeks later...

In SA, we are regulated by Fire standards, but these generally do not include a private house, as these are not normally required to have smoke detection.

I disagree that a battery powered smoke detector is as effective as a 12volt smoke detector connected to an alarm panel. While it is preferable to install a fire system, this adds costs.

In terms of different sounds from the same siren, most panels have programmable output, which can trigger a dedicated bell, a sound bomb/piezo siren or other visual or audible indicators for a fire alarm.

As mentioned in this forum, I have also heard many stories of battery operated smokes, without batteries, as these have been removed to power other irrelevant devices.

I am not sure of the UK regs regarding smoke detectors or how the inspectors enforce them, but I do believe in smoke detectors, battery only least, then alarm connected, then fire alarm, in that order of priority. In the US apparently a new reg states that smokes must be interconnected in a house.

Smokes should always be connected on a dedicated smoke/fire zone, be wired correctly, programmed correctly, and have sufficient battery backup.

Regards

NitroN

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I personally prefer fire detectors connected to the intruder system, (if you have a decent panel that is).

i have a keypad next to my bed so that when a detector operates i know where the fire is (each fire detector on seperate zone) i use a seperate fire output to trigger GSM communicator and another plus point is i have never had a false activation ( i use hochiki conventional on conversion base plus a co2 in living room.

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I personally prefer fire detectors connected to the intruder system, (if you have a decent panel that is).

i have a keypad next to my bed so that when a detector operates i know where the fire is (each fire detector on seperate zone) i use a seperate fire output to trigger GSM communicator and another plus point is i have never had a false activation ( i use hochiki conventional on conversion base plus a co2 in living room.

now thats home safety :P

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