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Legal Aspects Of Cctv


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#21 tinnitus

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 06:24 PM

View Posttinnitus, on Sep 19 2007, 07:09 PM, said:

i dont agree, will post back when i check. gimme 10.
OK, if it looks outwith the garden area, onto a path for example, it has to adhere to the DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998 and the HUMAN RIGHTS ACT 1998. five considerations are

1, REGISTRATION. it may have to be registered with the OFFICE OF THE INFORMATION COMMISSIONER

2. SIGNAGE

3. SYSTEM DESIGN

4. RECORDING

5. SECURITY OF DATA
i will elaborate on any point if required.

If it only looks at your private property, you should be OK, however, you still have postmen, milkmen, paperboys etc who might come to your door.
remember you have to supply images you have recorded if anyone asks for them. you also have to obscure anyone else in the video sequence at the same time. this requires a bit of editing.

HOWEVER!

Schemes which are "covert" by design

signage not required:

-if it would compromise objectives

-if a scheme is carried out for a limited time period

-if reasonable grounds exist to suspect specific criminal activity

-to secure successful prosecution


so as we cant agree i think you should call and find out. the only official answer you will get is from.....

the officer of the information commissioner. don't know the number but that's the best starting point

#22 amateurandy

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 06:29 PM

View Postadvancedprotection, on Sep 19 2007, 07:12 PM, said:

i have never had to do this before but how do you register with the dpa?
Start here: http://www.ico.gov.uk/

#23 tinnitus

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 06:38 PM

View Postamateurandy, on Sep 19 2007, 07:29 PM, said:

this is the way to go, i would speak to someone if you can. you dont want to get into trouble. you also dont want the very people who are giving you hassle learning there rights then asking you every day for a copy of the video of passing by the door. you can charge for this though so maybe not a problem

#24 advancedprotection

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 08:54 PM

has someone got the exact link from ico as i can't seem to find where to register. :unsure:
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#25 amateurandy

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 09:08 PM

View Postadvancedprotection, on Sep 19 2007, 09:54 PM, said:

has someone got the exact link from ico as i can't seem to find where to register. :unsure:
You really do need to read up on their advice first. Then best to phone them; it's all there! :)

#26 ilkie

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 09:14 PM

View Posttinnitus, on Sep 19 2007, 07:24 PM, said:

OK, if it looks outwith the garden area, onto a path for example, it has to adhere to the DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998 and the HUMAN RIGHTS ACT 1998. five considerations are

1, REGISTRATION. it may have to be registered with the OFFICE OF THE INFORMATION COMMISSIONER

2. SIGNAGE

3. SYSTEM DESIGN

4. RECORDING

5. SECURITY OF DATA
i will elaborate on any point if required.

If it only looks at your private property, you should be OK, however, you still have postmen, milkmen, paperboys etc who might come to your door.
remember you have to supply images you have recorded if anyone asks for them. you also have to obscure anyone else in the video sequence at the same time. this requires a bit of editing.

HOWEVER!

Schemes which are "covert" by design

signage not required:

-if it would compromise objectives

-if a scheme is carried out for a limited time period

-if reasonable grounds exist to suspect specific criminal activity

-to secure successful prosecution
so as we cant agree i think you should call and find out. the only official answer you will get is from.....

the officer of the information commissioner. don't know the number but that's the best starting point


Sorry, but residential CCTV is specifically exempt from the Data Protection Act.

To quote the ICO web site

"Q: My neighbour has CCTV cameras overlooking my property. Is this in breach of the Data Protection Act?

If your neighbour is a private individual e.g. the cameras are on their residential property, it is unlikely that they will be breaching the Data Protection Act because there is an exemption for domestic/household processing of personal data as long as this does not involve putting personal information on a website or otherwise disclosing it to the world at large without good reason. They may however be breaching other legislation, such as the law about harassment or voyeurism, and so may be referred to another body such as the police to investigate"

I believe the Human Rights Act does not apply as well.

Ilkie

#27 tinnitus

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 09:46 PM

View Postilkie, on Sep 19 2007, 10:14 PM, said:

Sorry, but residential CCTV is specifically exempt from the Data Protection Act.

To quote the ICO web site

"Q: My neighbour has CCTV cameras overlooking my property. Is this in breach of the Data Protection Act?

If your neighbour is a private individual e.g. the cameras are on their residential property, it is unlikely that they will be breaching the Data Protection Act because there is an exemption for domestic/household processing of personal data as long as this does not involve putting personal information on a website or otherwise disclosing it to the world at large without good reason. They may however be breaching other legislation, such as the law about harassment or voyeurism, and so may be referred to another body such as the police to investigate"

I believe the Human Rights Act does not apply as well.

Ilkie

its site specific. you cant have a camera looking into another premises for example on either. it may be more against the human rights act 1998. this is why i recommend a call to the office of the information commissioner.

#28 ilkie

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 10:52 PM

View Posttinnitus, on Sep 19 2007, 10:46 PM, said:

its site specific. you cant have a camera looking into another premises for example on either. it may be more against the human rights act 1998. this is why i recommend a call to the office of the information commissioner.

Sorry, Human Rights Act only places responsibilities on Public Authorities, not to members of the public.

see

Subsidiarity
The means of operation of the CCTV system should cause minimum interference with the privacy and the rights of the individual and will be tested and enforced through devolved UK courts.
All these issues need to be fully considered before setting up public place CCTV. However, the Human Rights Act only affects those acting as a public authority. There is no express definition in the Act but they include:
 Government departments
 Local authorities
 Police, prison, immigration officers
 Public prosecutors
 Courts and tribunals
 Non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs)


There is really no regulations regarding domestic CCTV, regardless of which direction the camera is pointing, other than nuisance.

Ilkie

#29 Doktor Jon

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 12:57 AM

View Postilkie, on Sep 19 2007, 10:52 PM, said:

Sorry, Human Rights Act only places responsibilities on Public Authorities, not to members of the public.

There is really no regulations regarding domestic CCTV, regardless of which direction the camera is pointing, other than nuisance.

Ilkie

As the man said, when it comes to domestic CCTV, the DPA, HRA & RIPA 2000 have no effect, and can therefore be discounted.

That said, planning legislation most definitely does apply, so any overt cameras installed on ANY property must comply with the various rules on "Permitted Development".

#30 TSionline

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 07:56 PM

hi guys

Quick question, i've been reading through some info on the data protection act etc regarding domestic CCTV. and it also my understanding that domestic CCTV has no obligations in regards to the dpa.

However, i was just curious, what if there were fully working PTZ cameras installed on domestic property. These obviously can view far more than lookng at there own property.... whats your thoughts on this? would it now become an issue?

cheers
James

#31 luggsey

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 08:59 PM

View PostTSionline, on Sep 23 2007, 08:56 PM, said:

hi guys

Quick question, i've been reading through some info on the data protection act etc regarding domestic CCTV. and it also my understanding that domestic CCTV has no obligations in regards to the dpa.

However, i was just curious, what if there were fully working PTZ cameras installed on domestic property. These obviously can view far more than lookng at there own property.... whats your thoughts on this? would it now become an issue?

cheers

I had been thinking along the same lines as I am upgrading my own CCTV to include a dome PTZ camera to replace existing fixed units. In theory it could be used to look where it should not but this could not be reason to have it removed surely?
I want to replace several fixed cameras with a neat dome on alarm inputs to the gate intercom and wireless PIR's so information on any problems I am likely to encounter would be useful to me also.
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#32 ilkie

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 09:52 PM

View Postluggsey, on Sep 23 2007, 09:59 PM, said:

I had been thinking along the same lines as I am upgrading my own CCTV to include a dome PTZ camera to replace existing fixed units. In theory it could be used to look where it should not but this could not be reason to have it removed surely?
I want to replace several fixed cameras with a neat dome on alarm inputs to the gate intercom and wireless PIR's so information on any problems I am likely to encounter would be useful to me also.

Now this is the daft thing about the Law (DPA), as I understand it.

It is not the camera view(s) that is relevant here, it is the use.

Domestic use of CCTV is exempt, so as I see it there is no conflict with the DPA if you wish to use PTZ cameras.

So enjoy!

Ilkie

#33 Doktor Jon

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:19 PM

View Postilkie, on Sep 23 2007, 09:52 PM, said:

Now this is the daft thing about the Law (DPA), as I understand it.

It is not the camera view(s) that is relevant here, it is the use.

Domestic use of CCTV is exempt, so as I see it there is no conflict with the DPA if you wish to use PTZ cameras.

So enjoy!

Ilkie

Agreed :yes:

#34 luggsey

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 12:08 AM

Does anybody have any updated info on the use of a dome PTZ on a domestic install?
Example if a neighbour complained to police that they think they are being observed by a dome PTZ what action if any could/would be taken?
I have a couple of customers that want dome PTZ cameras on domestics but I want to find out the possible problems first.
Is masking on a dome going to be required, if so how would this be checked?
Confusing times indeed!
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#35 Doktor Jon

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 11:19 PM

View Postluggsey, on Nov 27 2007, 12:08 AM, said:

Does anybody have any updated info on the use of a dome PTZ on a domestic install?
Example if a neighbour complained to police that they think they are being observed by a dome PTZ what action if any could/would be taken?
I have a couple of customers that want dome PTZ cameras on domestics but I want to find out the possible problems first.
Is masking on a dome going to be required, if so how would this be checked?
Confusing times indeed!

Not confusing at all luggsey :no:

Residential use of CCTV is currently exempt under Section 36 of the DPA, so it doesn't matter what equipment a homeowner uses, they don't have to comply with the Act.

That said, if there is the remotest possibility that a neighbouring homeowner may feel that they are being observed by a camera (particularly a PTZ / Dome), there is always the possibility that they may report it to the Police, using the Protection from Harassment Act (1997) as the appropriate legislation. Whether the police take it seriously or not is really up to the investigating officer on the day :unsure:

#36 luggsey

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 11:49 PM

View PostDoktor Jon, on Nov 27 2007, 11:19 PM, said:

Not confusing at all luggsey :no:

Residential use of CCTV is currently exempt under Section 36 of the DPA, so it doesn't matter what equipment a homeowner uses, they don't have to comply with the Act.

That said, if there is the remotest possibility that a neighbouring homeowner may feel that they are being observed by a camera (particularly a PTZ / Dome), there is always the possibility that they may report it to the Police, using the Protection from Harassment Act (1997) as the appropriate legislation. Whether the police take it seriously or not is really up to the investigating officer on the day :unsure:

I know the DPA question has been covered many times already and is clear on domestic use having an exemption if the data is processed for private use, this assumes a recording system is in use.
I was more interested in any facts about lawfulness of fitting a PTZ dome where it "could" be used to monitor private property, not record and how this is checked if a complaint is made. If a customer of mine says they have had a police visit after a complaint and for example have been asked to mask an area like a window in a neighbours house for example, is this a lawful request from the police or would they/should they have to proceed with a court action? I can't really see how the police could claim or prove harrasment if a dome is in use on a private property for monitoring only? A fixed camera looking at a neighbours windows is of course going to look like harrasment but the dome...... How can it? As you say does it depend on the opinion of a police officer or is there a "test" applied to it? I wonder??
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#37 Doktor Jon

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 12:31 AM

View Postluggsey, on Nov 27 2007, 11:49 PM, said:

I know the DPA question has been covered many times already and is clear on domestic use having an exemption if the data is processed for private use, this assumes a recording system is in use.
I was more interested in any facts about lawfulness of fitting a PTZ dome where it "could" be used to monitor private property, not record and how this is checked if a complaint is made. If a customer of mine says they have had a police visit after a complaint and for example have been asked to mask an area like a window in a neighbours house for example, is this a lawful request from the police or would they/should they have to proceed with a court action? I can't really see how the police could claim or prove harrasment if a dome is in use on a private property for monitoring only? A fixed camera looking at a neighbours windows is of course going to look like harrasment but the dome...... How can it? As you say does it depend on the opinion of a police officer or is there a "test" applied to it? I wonder??

luggsey,

The DPA equally applies to video surveillance whether it incorporates a recording system or not.

The commissioners test is whether you can study the behaviour of an individual (and in so doing learn something about them), in an area that is not immediately visible to the observer without the use of video monitoring equipment (that sounds so confusing, even I'm having to think about it :lol: ). To put it another way, if the camera is watching someone in an area that is not within your unrestricted view, then the DPA applies.

There are a few exemptions, of which domestic / residential is a fairly major one.

The point about siting a camera of whatever design, which is thought by a neighbour to be capable of monitoring their private property (in other words, they think it is invading their privacy, even if it isn't), would in theory be sufficient for a complaint about harassment.

A couple of points to consider; if the camera were mounted on a non residential premises, with residential neighbours, then a complaint could be made to the Information Commissioner about harassment under the DPA. If the premises were purely residential, then as previously mentioned, the DPA does not apply; but the Protection from Harassment legislation could apply in either situation.

Even if the camera were a dummy (which the neighbour would of course not be aware of), then as long as they feel that they are being deliberately harassed, they would in theory have a reasonable basis for complaint to the police.

If privacy masking or movement restrictions were in place to prevent the neighbouring property from being monitored, it would probably be down to the investigating officer or their superior, to satisfy themselves as to that fact, and then decide if any further action needs to be taken.

As far as I'm aware, there is no specific standardised test in these situations, although if you can find a police officer that actually understands the relevant legislation then you're off to a flying start ;)

TBH, common sense best practice suggests that in the vast majority of situations, problems can easily be avoided, either by consulting the neighbours (to allay any pre / potential post installation worries), locating cameras in non contentious locations (if possible), installing covert cameras, or involving the neighbours as part of a larger 'community' type system - maybe even using 2.4GHz video senders so that they also have access to a specific image (should they wish).

I've lost count of how many totally p****d off neighbours have written to me this year, with insensitive or downright malicious NFH that are using CCTV to deliberately harass them. Unfortunately until we get some proper legislation in place (don't hold your breath), this will remain a constant source of unease and distrust for some :(

#38 luggsey

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 04:57 PM

View PostDoktor Jon, on Nov 29 2007, 12:31 AM, said:

luggsey,

The DPA equally applies to video surveillance whether it incorporates a recording system or not.

The commissioners test is whether you can study the behaviour of an individual (and in so doing learn something about them), in an area that is not immediately visible to the observer without the use of video monitoring equipment (that sounds so confusing, even I'm having to think about it :lol: ). To put it another way, if the camera is watching someone in an area that is not within your unrestricted view, then the DPA applies.

There are a few exemptions, of which domestic / residential is a fairly major one.

The point about siting a camera of whatever design, which is thought by a neighbour to be capable of monitoring their private property (in other words, they think it is invading their privacy, even if it isn't), would in theory be sufficient for a complaint about harassment.

A couple of points to consider; if the camera were mounted on a non residential premises, with residential neighbours, then a complaint could be made to the Information Commissioner about harassment under the DPA. If the premises were purely residential, then as previously mentioned, the DPA does not apply; but the Protection from Harassment legislation could apply in either situation.

Even if the camera were a dummy (which the neighbour would of course not be aware of), then as long as they feel that they are being deliberately harassed, they would in theory have a reasonable basis for complaint to the police.

If privacy masking or movement restrictions were in place to prevent the neighbouring property from being monitored, it would probably be down to the investigating officer or their superior, to satisfy themselves as to that fact, and then decide if any further action needs to be taken.

As far as I'm aware, there is no specific standardised test in these situations, although if you can find a police officer that actually understands the relevant legislation then you're off to a flying start ;)

TBH, common sense best practice suggests that in the vast majority of situations, problems can easily be avoided, either by consulting the neighbours (to allay any pre / potential post installation worries), locating cameras in non contentious locations (if possible), installing covert cameras, or involving the neighbours as part of a larger 'community' type system - maybe even using 2.4GHz video senders so that they also have access to a specific image (should they wish).

I've lost count of how many totally p****d off neighbours have written to me this year, with insensitive or downright malicious NFH that are using CCTV to deliberately harass them. Unfortunately until we get some proper legislation in place (don't hold your breath), this will remain a constant source of unease and distrust for some :(

Quote

Not confusing at all luggsey no.gif

Remember this?

And now this!

Quote

(that sounds so confusing, even I'm having to think about it lol.gif ).

So you understand my confusion! :yes:

I had studied the DPA and concluded it does not apply to domestic non recorded images, that's my understanding of it anyway.
The customers that want domes have neighbour problems already so reaching a prior agreement isin't going to work in this case TBH which is why I wanted to get to the bottom of the relevent legislation now before anything hits the fan.
I suppose the only way to find out the "test" as to weather or not a camera is being used to harrass someone is to look at case law on the subject, anybody got any case law refrence material they can have a look at??
The average PC plod dosen't have much of a clue about this area of the law TBH, the one I spoke to didn't anyway!
I'll keep digging on the web to trawl up some more info, if I find any I'll post here what I find.
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#39 luggsey

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 06:52 PM

Liberty web page

NFH

Edited by luggsey, 29 November 2007 - 07:01 PM.

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#40 luggsey

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 07:11 PM

View Postluggsey, on Nov 29 2007, 06:52 PM, said:

NFH again!
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